MozillaWiki - User contributions [en]

Talk:Places

2006-12-31T20:42:19Z

Alexandre Oberlin:

Best not break my bookmarks boy.

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This may be more of an extension feature than a core feature, but there isn't an extension out there that does it as well as it could be done.

It would be fantastic to have a feature that allows you to store & synch your bookmarks at a remote location in a format that can be read in a web browser. I regularly use 3 different computer for work and pop into Internet cafes while traveling, and never seem to have the bookmark I need in the right place at the right time.

The one extension I've found that comes close to this is Bookmarks Synchronizer that stores your bookmarks in an XML format. But it has a critical flaw that can cause you to lose your existing bookmarks and appears to have been abandonded after version 1.0.1.

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Two points to make here.
First, I agree with the post above. I sometimes work from home and if I find something worth bookmarking, I usually have to send myself the link at work (or viceversa). Having an online repository would be great.

I'm afraid it may be late for the second point as you guys already are in the middle of implementation. However, I read an article by UI guru Jakob Nielsen years ago that was focused on Bookmarks, History. What I found is not what I had in mind but it mentions the same concepts. http://www.useit.com/alertbox/9711a.html

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I'm going to propose something very radical, but please give it serious thought. Consider natively integrating Firefox with the Windows 98/Windows 2000/Windows XP "Favorites" system. I realise most people consider this to be an "evil IE feature", but all versions of Windows in the past 6+ years have included Favorites as a native, OS-level feature. Favorites are included in everything from the start menu to the "main menu" of explorer folder windows. Yes, it's part of the "Integrate IE with the OS curse", but I believe it falls within the Firefox philosophy - simple, standardize, OS-friendly user interfaces.

My proposal: If a user loads Firefox on a Windows platform that supports favorites natively at the OS level, Firefox uses those favorites - either directly, or through some sort of "transparent caching". If the favorites are cached so that Firefox can optimize them, the user should not be aware of that - they should look and feel the same as Favorites, for the most part (ie/ no additional IE, no syncronization dialogs).

An option/preference would allow the user to select which bookmark system to use (ie/ where new bookmarks go). "meta data" about the "favorite" (.url) bookmarks could be cached in firefox's bookmark file or another file somehow.

I realize this is likely to be stomped out very quickly - but consider that "Favorites" are an operating system feature - supporting favorites is no different than supporting the native Windows "File Save Dialog" or rendering scrollbars with Windows XP Themes. In addition, it provides a very easy, gradual upgrade path for Internet Explorer users. They can easily "dabble" in Firefox until they are ready to take the full plunge. I can honestly say that even as a technical user, I found the lack of automatic/transparent bookmark syncronization a severe frustration when I first started using Firefox.

I'm not suggesting the Firefox team sign a deal with the devil - but perhaps it would allow users to switch to Firefox with much less pain. :-) Nothing says that the favorites and the firefox bookmark file cannot be "merged" at display time.

== Replacing local bookmarks with remote ==

I'd find it really useful if you could actually provide a way for extensions to override native bookmarking functionality and use an online provider -- like del.icio.us, for example. I stopped using local bookmarks a long time ago for anything I wanted to remember in the future, so "Places" functionality will be completely lost on me unless there's a way to get external services in there somewhere.

== Local/Absolute dual bookmarks ==

I've long wanted a way to bookmark news articles that I have stored on my hard drive along with the URL. I frequently cite URLs as sources and it'd be nice to be able to quickly check the link, then source the file from my hard drive if the URL is dead. The first implementation that comes to mind is an icon to the right of the link text that summons the local file.

Other suggestions:
When using the navigation toolbar, checking a bookmark's properties or sorting a folder by name (inter alia) causes the tree to close/collapse/whatever. This is annoying.

It would be great if we could shift-click and control-click to select bookmarks/folders for export from the bookmark manager.

It would be great if we could export bookmarks and optionally have the result look and behave as the links in the navbar and/or bookmark manager do (i.e., preserve file structure).

When copying/pasting bookmarks, it would be great if we had an option to allow the title(s) AND the URL(s) to be copied/pasted.

It'd be great if we could automate a periodic check for dead URLs, with a nice detailed report, but I'm guessing this is the sort of thing tons of people have suggested.

When saving pages maybe a way to make an article's publication date the file's creation date? I know this is outside the scope here...

I'm sure I could come up with more given time. I'm very glad to hear that bookmarks are going to finally get some attention.

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= Tagging: different than bookmarking =

Recent thinking on the UI (as discussed in the newsgroups) has led us to shift from our initial thinking that tagging should be seen as an alternate way to create bookmarks, with tags simply acting as surrogates for bookmark folders. After looking at some hard questions about what that implied for nested folders, preserving existing bookmark heirarchy structures, and adjusting users' mental models, we began to see things differently.

Most recently, we've started to see tagging as the ability to do something else: specifically, to be able to mark an entry in your web browsing history as "interesting."

Here's the rationale: Bookmarks were originally intended to be shortcuts to commonly visited sites. But then the web got bigger, and people started using them as ways to remember interesting places. But then the web got bigger still, and all of a sudden the bookmarking system couldn't cope. Initial thoughts about tagging were: well, let's use tags and search to make it easier to handle large bookmark sets. But that led to some very good questions: search isn't as quick as click-click-click through a drop-down menu or click on a personal toolbar. The key was realizing that the use of bookmarks shifted and merged: a single system was being used to store shortcuts AND sites that were just interesting and that the user thought they might want to get back to. The goal of keeping all of these interesting sites is, well, to keep track of one's personal world wide web. To tag those pages that they thing are interesting and then be able to quickly search not the entire web, but across their already-experienced subset to get back to where they were. And that's why we think it's different.)

[[User:Beltzner|Beltzner]] 19:35, 25 Feb 2006 (PST)

Excellent point! I think any redesign of a bookmarking interface in current browsers needs to address exactly this problem. But, may be there is a simple solution: two different purposes require two different interfaces that serve each purpose best. Have a look at this little essay I wrote recently: http://tdot.blog-city.com/rethinking_bookmarks_ui.htm

-- 24 March 2006 --

This is exactly what I think I would use. Give me a button I can hit when I find a site that is either interesting, or that I know I'll need to get back to soon. No popups. No "Enter tags" or "Rename" dialog or nothing. Just a button that does everything for me, and lites up to let me know its done. Then put a list of 'em (with readable names) in the sidebar or bookmarks menu or history menu or as a dropdown outta the URL bar. I don't really care where it shows up. I just don't wanna have to open a new window for it. That's pretty much all I use bookmarks for. And most of them I'm more than happy to be done with after 2 days usage.

-- 19:43, 8 March 2006 --

== Cheaper on bandwidth ==

I'm glad to see firefox will be heading in this direction. Let me make a suggestion: if need be to implement server side functionality in order to keep cached bookmarks current, just remember that server hosting would benefit from this feature -and most likely jump to the aid of Firefox- since it would reduce the ammount of bandwidth they would waste unnecessarily.

== Puts Places in a Tab ==

Does the Places section have to be a window? These clutter the browsing space, and I think it would be much better to have the Places section in a tab itself. Opera does this at the moment with Bookmarks and History (separately). [[User:Sgd|Sgd]] 15:52, 20 Mar 2006 (PST)

Places used to be in a tab but there were a lot of bugs related to having XUL in the content area of the window. I liked it better in a tab as well, and I hope we can go back to a tab in future releases when the bugs are fixed. ~BrettWilson

= Sidebar for Bookmarks =

Having bookmarks in a sidebar is the fastest access (one click) and can be used as a permanent visual reminder for bookmarks, bookmarklets, and keywords to activate bookmarks (e.g. "dt _ del.icio.us tag search" with the %s hack and "dt" as keyword that I write as a visual reminder at the beginning of the line followed by an underscore to separate it from the text). The menu for bookmarks requires at lest two clicks and is a "dynamic" visual reminder. The sidebar and the menu for bookmarks are perfect interfaces for a small number of frequently visited websites and as toolbox for bookmarklets. So, don't drop it with the new Places Interface. --[[User:Tdot|Tdot]] 20:35, 23 March 2006 (PST)

= Use Cases =

Someone really needs to fill in the use case section. It seems like it would be important when designing a UI. Somebody in the groups suggested this case: "One example is the deletion of a place. ... That used to delete just one instance in one folder for decades, and now you change it, including dataloss." Things that delete data should be done with a dialogue. Something that asks if you want to entirely remove the bookmark(s), or just remove it(them) from that category, and maybe an "Always perform this action" checkbox at the bottom.

I looked through the UI and didn't see any UI on deleting bookmarks at all, but I apologize if this is a repeat of something. --[[User:Wjjohnst|wjjohnst]] April 13, 2006 3:20(CST)

= Browse Bookmarks, then Save! =

A feature of Konqueror I always loved was that you could drop down any menu from your Bookmarks and click "Add Bookmark Here".

I use my Bookmarks Toolbar and rarely the Bookmarks menu. It would be great to just click that category I want from the menu, navigate to one of my sub-menus and then click "Add Bookmark Here". I find this method much more speedy than using the "Bookmark This Page" function.

If I want to organise my bookmarks the Bookmarks Manager will still be there, but when I want to quickly mark a page, I want to quickly mark it.

Also, there are often situations when I might want to add several pages from a site or sites all in reasonably quick succession. Using the "Add Bookmark Here" function is the slow way of doing things.

[[User:Bugman|Bugman]] 23:52, 15 May 2006 (ACST)

== index ALL and pinpoint SOME ==

Hi all,

I am extremely surprised that even in Firefox 2 we still have no more than this completely obsolete and unpractical bookmark functionality to go back where we once were (apart from history of course).

The solution is so simple! Of course the hierarchical organization of
bookmarks is a nonsense and we'd be better off with a keyword/tag approach.
Yet the solution I would retain is even simpler to implement and use:
just put ALL the visited URLs back to a user chosen period of time in a local or remote htdig/glimpse style database, storing the last visits date as well. Also allow the user to add an extra pinpoint to URLs of particular interest to him/her and you're done!

Indexing everything is important so that the user does not have to worry about not forgetting to bookmark, especially when there are several pages of interest within the same website.

Well now OK the index might get big if an extensive surfer wants several years of storage. But this should not normally grow beyond the capacity of present hard disks. And remote storage is of course an option.

Why looking further for awkward and complicated schemes most users will
neglect to learn ?

A functionally equivalent approach would be to ask Google to add your name, the date and your eventual pinpoint in their database when you visit a site ;-)

--[[User:Alexandre Oberlin|Alexandre Oberlin]] 12:42, 31 December 2006 (PST)

Talk:Places

2006-12-31T20:38:22Z

Alexandre Oberlin:

Talk:Places

2006-12-31T20:35:53Z

Alexandre Oberlin: /* index ALL and pinpoint SOME */

Talk:Places

2006-12-31T20:24:55Z

Alexandre Oberlin: index ALL and pinpoint SOME

Places:History Use Cases

2006-11-24T19:25:37Z

Alexandre Oberlin: /* Example users */ 1 typo

<i>This page is not for general user discussion and feedback. Please do not add your personal use cases. Perhaps we should have another page for that, or you can add it to the discussion.</i>

== Example users ==

Using the method of Alan Cooper, we should identify concrete examples of some of the types of users that want to use history, what their experience level is, what their goals are, how they encounter history, etc.

=== Mike ===

Mike is a Mozilla developer that knows a lot about Firefox.

Task: He wants to go back to the bug he was working on the previous afternoon, but doesn't remember the bug number and wasn't assigned to it, so he can't find it in his bug list.

As the bug was entered by Dude (below), the title has nothing to do with the bug and looks like many similar bugs in Mike's browsing history. He remembers or can quickly figure out all the features of the history system, but doesn't have much time to spend looking for his site.

Other goals: He wants something he can talk about to sell people on using his project (Firefox). He wants interesting things he can point people at to make them want to try Firefox.

=== Brittany ===

Teenage girl. Need something different than the other people here... (my old person here was too much like Dude below).

=== Dude ===

Dude is a 16 year old who has grown up with computers. He pushes all the buttons, but doesn't necessarily know what he's doing. He learns quickly and will remember the most efficient way to do something if he stumbles across it.

Task: He is trying to find a Warez site he visited the previous weekend so he can download more Warez. Because of the nature of the site, he can't find it on Google. He remembers a lot of details about the site. For example, he remembers he visited it last Sunday evening because that was the last time he was downloading warez. He also vaguely remembers the edgy black layout and some contents of the page describing some leet-speekized version of "Adobe Photoshop" which he doesn't remember exactly. He doesn't remember the URL (because it was an IP address), or the title (because it was some random words designed to sound cool, like most of the other sites he visits).

Other goals: He wants to feel cool doing whatever he's doing. He wants to feel superior to all the regular people using IE, and feel like he's doing something that normal people can't.

=== Henrietta ===

Henrietta is a 55 year old who isn't very good with computers, but is comfortable browsing the internet, using search engines, and typing in URLs. She has a vague idea about things like bookmarks, but doesn't use them.

She is not very curious about the browser and won't generally try something unless somebody or something tells her how to do it. She vaguely remembers her son Mike (the Mozilla developer above) telling her something about "History" and finding old sites. She doesn't know really what that is, but notices the menu with the same label. She might try one or two things that look promising, but will give up quickly if she doesn't understand what is going on or doesn't find what she's looking for.

Task: Her goal is to revisit an interesting literature site she saw sometime last week to show a visiting friend. She was unable to find it with a quick Google search. She does not remember any part of the URL or the title, but would probably recognise the title if she saw it.

Other goals: She wants to spend as little time learning to use the stupid computer as possible, and doesn't care about other things.

== Design ==

History should be discoverable by relative novices. I'm not sure such a person would associate "History" with pages they've previously seen. Perhaps we should rename these menu items "Search pages viewed..." or something else. The toplevel "History" menu is fine.

When Henrietta gets to the places tab, it needs to be immediately obvious what things to and how she can navigate. Currently, the search box is not clear enough for her even if she knew keywords to search for. The history navigation UI model doesn't work. She should be able to see how she can navigate.

Places:History Use Cases

2006-11-24T19:21:39Z

Alexandre Oberlin: /* Henrietta */ 2 typos

<i>This page is not for general user discussion and feedback. Please do not add your personal use cases. Perhaps we should have another page for that, or you can add it to the discussion.</i>

== Example users ==

Using the method of Alan Cooper, we should identify concrete examples of some of the types of users that want to use history, what their experince level is, what their goals are, how they encounter history, etc.

=== Mike ===

Mike is a Mozilla developer that knows a lot about Firefox.

Task: He wants to go back to the bug he was working on the previous afternoon, but doesn't remember the bug number and wasn't assigned to it, so he can't find it in his bug list.

As the bug was entered by Dude (below), the title has nothing to do with the bug and looks like many similar bugs in Mike's browsing history. He remembers or can quickly figure out all the features of the history system, but doesn't have much time to spend looking for his site.

Other goals: He wants something he can talk about to sell people on using his project (Firefox). He wants interesting things he can point people at to make them want to try Firefox.

=== Brittany ===

Teenage girl. Need something different than the other people here... (my old person here was too much like Dude below).

=== Dude ===

Dude is a 16 year old who has grown up with computers. He pushes all the buttons, but doesn't necessarily know what he's doing. He learns quickly and will remember the most efficient way to do something if he stumbles across it.

Task: He is trying to find a Warez site he visited the previous weekend so he can download more Warez. Because of the nature of the site, he can't find it on Google. He remembers a lot of details about the site. For example, he remembers he visited it last Sunday evening because that was the last time he was downloading warez. He also vaguely remembers the edgy black layout and some contents of the page describing some leet-speekized version of "Adobe Photoshop" which he doesn't remember exactly. He doesn't remember the URL (because it was an IP address), or the title (because it was some random words designed to sound cool, like most of the other sites he visits).

Other goals: He wants to feel cool doing whatever he's doing. He wants to feel superior to all the regular people using IE, and feel like he's doing something that normal people can't.

=== Henrietta ===

Henrietta is a 55 year old who isn't very good with computers, but is comfortable browsing the internet, using search engines, and typing in URLs. She has a vague idea about things like bookmarks, but doesn't use them.

She is not very curious about the browser and won't generally try something unless somebody or something tells her how to do it. She vaguely remembers her son Mike (the Mozilla developer above) telling her something about "History" and finding old sites. She doesn't know really what that is, but notices the menu with the same label. She might try one or two things that look promising, but will give up quickly if she doesn't understand what is going on or doesn't find what she's looking for.

Task: Her goal is to revisit an interesting literature site she saw sometime last week to show a visiting friend. She was unable to find it with a quick Google search. She does not remember any part of the URL or the title, but would probably recognise the title if she saw it.

Other goals: She wants to spend as little time learning to use the stupid computer as possible, and doesn't care about other things.

== Design ==

History should be discoverable by relative novices. I'm not sure such a person would associate "History" with pages they've previously seen. Perhaps we should rename these menu items "Search pages viewed..." or something else. The toplevel "History" menu is fine.

When Henrietta gets to the places tab, it needs to be immediately obvious what things to and how she can navigate. Currently, the search box is not clear enough for her even if she knew keywords to search for. The history navigation UI model doesn't work. She should be able to see how she can navigate.