Calendar:Status Meetings:2006-04-06:ircLog

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irc log

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17:04:49dmosewell, let's go ahead
17:05:10dmoseanything missing from the agenda that we should cover?
17:05:42dmosei'll take that as a no, if there's something to add, feel free to /msg me
17:05:45ssaI'm fine with it
17:06:06dmosecan i convince someone to sign up as the scribe for taking notes for this meeting?
17:06:43dmose(this will allow me to not have to split my attention between scribing and driving the meeting, which should make it go faster)
17:06:57dmoselilmatt: excellent; thanks
17:07:16dmoselilmatt: go ahead and just scribe to the agenda page directly
17:07:25dmoseso, first item: action items from last week
17:07:42dmoseitem #1) module owner state of the world / evolution possibilities
17:08:11dmosei'm just getting down to work on that
17:08:20dmosei hope to have a draft up by this afternoon
17:08:25dmoseat which point i'll post something in the newsgroup
17:08:46dmosesorry i wasn't able to complete that by now
17:08:49mvldoes that include defining more modules?
17:09:19dmoseyes, this will be an attempt at documenting the defacto state of the world more completely
17:09:28dmoseeg webdav is actually owner by you, and i'm probably a peer
17:09:39dmoseand caldav is owner by me, and jminta is probably a peer
17:09:55dmoseas well as all the things which are semi-owned, like l10n, a11y, etc
17:10:13ssawhile we are at it: i would like to propose a new (small) module...
17:10:40ssawe are currently developing a wcap provider that connects to Sun's calendar server
17:11:13ssain fact daniel is working on it and we would like to contribute it soon
17:11:45ssaso if you set up modules and peers, that would be one
17:11:45mvlis it an calICalendar implementation?
17:11:49dmoseno objection from me. perhaps ask him to post a short blurb to the newsgroup about it, and then we can figure out details there?
17:12:07ssayes and yes
17:12:56dmoseok, cool
17:12:57ssaok, please go on...
17:13:23dmosenext item: mvl, did you get a chance to talk to the camino folks about their review process?
17:13:42mvldmose: i've send mail to josh, but didn't hear back
17:13:51mvland then i kind of forgot about it...
17:14:10mvl(i tried to also mail pinkerton, but that bounced)
17:14:14dmoseok, can you try and get that sorted out this week?
17:14:27mvlyeah, i hope i'll have more success
17:14:32mvli'll ask around in #camino
17:14:36dmosesounds like a good plan
17:15:10dmosenex item: ctalbert was to take the lead on sorting out our QA picture
17:15:18dmosehe's not here, but he did post to the newsgroup
17:15:22dmosei'll try and reply to that post today
17:15:48dmosei know he also sent mail to to find out more about the regression suite work davel has been doing for the moz project as a whole
17:16:11dmosesounds like that's worthy of checking in on next week, and continuing newsgroup discussion in the meantime
17:16:35dmosenext item: mac build/release lossage. that was sorted out last week. lilmatt, anything to add there?
17:17:41dmosenext item: ssa started a good discussion in the newsgroup about 1.0 features
17:17:55dmosenext item: this meeting
17:18:07dmoseok, so Sunbird 0.3a2 status
17:18:22dmosemvl: you wanna take that one?
17:18:41mvlnot much changed
17:18:43mvlsome fixes
17:18:53mvland some breakage, related to cairo
17:19:07mvlbuild is green now, but i'm not sure if that's with or without cairo
17:19:18dmoseon linux, you mean?
17:19:27jmintacoop said it was --enable-default-toolkit=gtk2
17:19:27ssitterwithout i think
17:19:50dmosepreed asked me whether we had wanted cairo for 0.3a2, and i told "not particularly"
17:19:59dmoseso i think this was probably the fastest way to get things green again
17:20:25mvljust tried the build, and it seems to work ok
17:20:25dmose(i hope i gave him the right answer)
17:20:50dmoseso where are we, at a high level?
17:21:03mvlclose, i think
17:21:17mvlthere's one bug, 306157, that i don't know how to fix
17:21:29mvlothers seem to have patches, just require review and/or checkin
17:21:44dmoseok, so maybe a release candidate by early next week, if not sooner?
17:21:54mvlthe sooner the better :)
17:22:08mvli'll be away the weekend of eastern (around april 14th)
17:22:17mvlif we could have released before, that would be great
17:22:45***Mnyromyr (Mnyromyr@B2521176.7B0892CB.771966F7.IP) has joined the channel
17:22:46dmoseare you planning on doing one or more RCs, like Lightning did, or just releasing straight out, like 0.3a1 did?
17:23:20mvlone RC, or a 'special' nightly, would be good, to get some testing
17:23:28***mschroeder is now known as mschroeder|away
17:23:33mvlalthough i don't think we have a big enough community to get extra testing
17:23:40mvlthose that test already run nightlies
17:23:46dmosesounds reasonable
17:24:09dmoseok, anything else 0.3a2-related that we should discuss now?
17:24:17mvldid we get much feedback on lightning RC's?
17:24:31dmosesome, yeah
17:24:32jmintasome agenda-tree stuff
17:24:41dmosethere were people who hadn't been testing nightlies that tried the RCs
17:24:50dmosehow many, i'm not sure
17:25:02mvlwould asking for extra testing in the newsgroup and blog give the same feedback on a normal nightly?
17:25:09mvl'grab a nightly, test!'
17:25:14dmoseseems likely
17:25:25dmosei mean, other than rebranding a specific nightly as an RC, that's all we really did
17:25:56dmoseand by re-branding, i really just mean "called it that" not "changed any bits"
17:26:27mvljust some tweaking on the filenames, on stage.m.o?
17:26:54dmosenot even that
17:26:59dmosejust linked directly to the nightly from the wiki page]
17:27:31lilmattThen when do we want to increment version.txt and the url to the release notes?
17:27:38mvlwe can do that for sunbird
17:28:40dmoseok, on to calendaring extension future?
17:29:06dmosehave folks seen the post i made yesterday about tiered support?
17:29:28mvli just saw it
17:29:45dmosefor references, that's here:
17:29:49dmosethe last post on that page
17:29:58mvlbut plans are good, but as long as nobody is willing to do the work...
17:30:26dmoseso my thinking is that right now, today, the only things that could possibly be tier-1
17:30:33dmoseare sunbird and lightning-in-thunderbird
17:30:56dmosebecause nothing else has enough development energy around it
17:31:31dmoseadditionally, even if there were more inertia around the other project pieces, i tend to feel that having more than two tier-one apps is going to produce too much drag
17:31:42mvlsunbird-based-in-firefox can be tier-2
17:31:52mvlneeds a few tweaks to a makefile to make it work
17:32:27mvlxpfe-based-calendar-in-seamonkey can be tier-3, aka unsupported and removed from cvs :)
17:33:08dmoseanyone else have thoughts on my posting, the bug it links to, and the stuff we've just said here?
17:33:09mvlbut really, the amount of people using seamonkey is pretty low
17:33:13*Mnyromyr kicks mvl :-P
17:33:13mvlto low to let it slow us down
17:33:23ssaso this boils down to the proposal that the extension is really only sunbird, just as an extension, right ?
17:33:34mvlssa: that's my idea, yes
17:33:48ssai would love to see this
17:34:09ssaand of course bringing lightning and sunbird even closer
17:34:19mvlI already have the extension working. You just shouldn't ever close the calendar window. You can't re-open :)
17:35:01lilmattmvl: sunbird in firefox, or in smonkey?
17:35:12mvlbut i guess the current calendar.xpi has the same problems
17:35:15dmoseso one thing i would like to propose, in relatively short order, is that we stop supporting/advertising calendar-xpi-for-thunderbird
17:35:21mvllilmatt: sunbird-in-firefox
17:35:31jmintamvl: i did the same thing with Lightning
17:35:31lilmattdmose: seconded
17:35:52jmintaso my question is, what are the reasons for calling this sunbird-in-firefox, vs lightning-in-firefox?
17:36:16dmoseso we still need to sort out our browser-calendar-story, whatever that is
17:36:20mvljminta: because it uses sunbird's calendar.xul
17:36:33dmosewhether it's "lightning", "calendar.xpi", "some other stub", or "nothing at all"
17:36:39mvlit's not integrated, like lightning will be
17:36:58dmosei would propose that we hold off on that discussion a bit yet
17:37:03lilmattsunbird-on-firefox is basically the same as sunbird-on-xulrunner
17:37:14mvldmose: yes, but that's not related to supporting seamonkey
17:37:15dmosejust because i think it can't possibly be finished inside this meeting
17:37:41mvllilmatt: yes, that's why i think it won't do much harm to keep supporting that, even only as tier-2
17:37:41ssamay be this is a little bit blasphemous, but do we have download numbers for lightning and sunbird ? just to know the 'market share' ? but this has not to be discussed now...
17:38:03dmoseno, but we should try and get them
17:38:22dmoseit'll certainly be a useful statistic to track over time
17:38:42dmoseto help understand what customers are using, and what sort of trends are happening
17:39:05dmoseanyone care to take an action item to work with the sysadmin/release guys to get those numbers?
17:39:05ssaand where we should put our efforts
17:39:08ssittera.m.o states "Total Downloads: 2030" for lightning
17:39:36jmintabut i doubt most of our downloads are coming from there
17:39:56dmosei think the numbers are likely to be more meaningful once we do a simultaneous lightning/seamonkey release of the same version number
17:40:06mvl yeah
17:40:08Mnyromyrmvl: well, SM is moving towards toolkit/XULRunner anyway, so that problem will eventually dissolve - we just want to avoid overly suckage in the meanwhile; but we're well aware that (human) ressources are too low for that :-/
17:40:10dmosealso, we can probably get useful information by tracking update.rdf hits
17:40:17Mnyromyrmvl: both on our and on your side
17:40:52dmoselilmatt: ok, since we don't seem to have a volunteer, assign that action item to me, and i'll see if i can find someone who's interested that i can hand it off to
17:41:19dmoseso it sounds like the big things we've decided are
17:41:29dmose"drop calendar-xpi-in-tbird"
17:41:39dmoseand "drop seamonkey support until it moves to toolkit"
17:41:52dmoseis that the consensus understanding?
17:42:15lilmattat least, that['s what I'm writing
17:42:18ssawhat does it mean for bugfixes, do they have to be tested against the extension ?
17:42:22mvlyes, i agree with that
17:42:26dmosessa: i would say no
17:43:03dmoseeven though we still haven't totally killed extension-in-fx, i don't think extension-in-anything can be a tier 1 platform
17:43:09mvlssa: if you are doing big changes to the front-end, it would be appreciated if you could do a quick test in the extension :)
17:43:42dmosemvl: we already have two things we need to test in: sunbird & ltn-in-tbird
17:43:50ssait's just that tbe becomes desperate about it
17:43:56dmosei think that adding a third is just too much
17:44:05lilmattso basically the third major decision is "drop xpfe altogether"
17:44:19dmosewe want to be able to iterate quickly
17:44:27dmoseand get all these interesting things we care about into 1.0
17:44:29ssamvl: you mean the view mock-up ?
17:44:42mvlthe problem is that we have two calendar.xpi files. I really want to drop one
17:45:16***jminta is now known as jminta|away
17:45:20dmoselilmatt: that's my understanding, yes
17:45:32lilmattmvl: which 2?
17:45:55mvllilmatt: resouces/content/calendar.xul and sunbird/base/content/calendar.xul
17:46:04mvl(hope i got the paths right)
17:46:08dmosemvl: i don't think it's bad if you or someone else wants to continue to keep calendar.xpi on life-support. but i'm less convinced that it's reasonable that everyone else should have to slow down their rate of contributions to help that
17:46:17lilmattso can we lose the resources one?
17:46:26mvllilmatt: yes, that's my suggestion
17:46:50mvldmose: i'm not saying that everything has to be testing in three apps
17:47:25mvli just said that, once we have dropped one calendar.xul, it would be appreciated if you could do a real quick test to see if the exension still starts
17:47:49dmosejust for major architecture changes?
17:48:08ssittertesting means sunbird + ltn-in-tbird-1.5 + ltn-in-tbird-2.0 + ltn-in-tbird-3.0 * 3 platforms at the moment
17:48:35dmosein fact, the situation is a little more complicated
17:48:49dmosein the sense that there are different kinds of testing being talked about here
17:48:56dmoseone is "what should a developer have to test before checking in?"
17:49:15dmoseanother is "what does the test matrix look like for more qa-focussed folks"
17:49:41dmosetoday, at least, i only test most of my changes in lightning on one platform
17:49:43mvlI only have a linux build env, so that's all i can do reasonable tests on...
17:49:55dmoseunless i have reason to believe that my changes are likely to break sunbird or some other platform
17:50:07dmoseadditionally, i pretty much just test my changes against the trunk
17:50:28dmoseand assume that problems that i miss in testing will turn up at some point after checkin
17:50:36dmosewhen i'll deal with them as necessary
17:50:43ssitteri think in terms of nightly builds regression tesing
17:50:43mvlyeah, i do that too
17:50:45dmosei don't know if this is similar to the way other people work
17:50:48dmosebut i suspect so
17:50:51mvlexcept that I use sunbird
17:51:16dmoseand i mostly assume that if something works in sunbird, it will also work in the xpi
17:51:30ssaI think that even two calendar apps are too much for this small group (devs and qa). focussing on one single calendar app and bringing it into shape is an ambitious goal (remember the road map). so please let us abandon the extension and may be even think about freezing sunbird until Lightning 1.0 is done.
17:51:35dmoseand for when that's not the case, somebody wil report the problem later
17:52:34mvlssa: alot of work in backend work. For those, the front-end doesn't matter much
17:53:02mvlssa: we should try to unite as mcuh code as possible, but i prefer to have two apps for now
17:53:06dmosewell, i think a lot of this can be solved by the division of effort
17:53:16dmosein the sense that, if people work on whatever app they want
17:53:29ssayes, more unification would be great
17:53:38mvlbut i'm known to be slow at changes. I only changed to FF recently :)
17:53:38dmoseand are willing to be responsive if their checkins break one of the other apps\
17:53:47dmosei think that gets us a lot of the way there
17:54:01dmoseqa folks can work similarly
17:54:09dmosethey could be responsible for QAing what they think is important
17:54:23dmoseok, so.
17:54:25dmose5 minutes left
17:54:31dmoseand there's clearly lots more discussion to be had.
17:54:35dmosehow about this:
17:54:57dmosecontinue this discussion in the newsgroup, and keep it on the agenda for next week
17:55:08ssayou're absolutely right. it's just that we are thinking about our browser story where it seems that we are not sure about our calendar story yet.
17:56:15mvldmose: sounds good
17:56:24dmoseok, 1.0 brainstorming
17:56:28dmosewell, we did a lot of that in the newsgroup
17:56:54dmoseand i think we've gotten to the point where we'll get more benefit from defining our audiences a bit more clearly than by doing more brainstorming immediately
17:57:15dmoseso i propose trying to put together a meeting which includes mconnor and beltzner
17:57:26dmoseabout both imaginary users and product definition
17:57:49dmoseand keep both those items on the agenda for next week as well
17:58:01dmosei'll try and arrange the meeting by tomorrow for sometime early next week and post details
17:58:06dmosedoes that sound reasonable?
17:58:30mvlsounds good
17:58:45mvlwe might need to do some preparation work
17:59:12dmosewhat did you have in mind?
17:59:51dmosein some ways, i thought this would be a good way to have beltzner and mconnor help direct us on what sort of work would help us get the most bang for our buck
18:00:42ssamay be we should try to find the users/product stuff offline and discuss the proposals in a meeting with those guys ?
18:00:44mvlwe could start with trying to define some users
18:01:07dmosesure, having some pre-discussion sounds reasonable
18:01:17dmoselet's have it in the followup to the newsgroup thread that i'll start with the meeting info
18:01:21mvlssa: that's what dmose is proposing :)
18:01:54ssamvl: ok, I see
18:02:08dmoseok, so, final item: upcoming conferences / face-to-face meetings
18:02:18dmosethere are three things that are part of this
18:02:20mvlssa: beltzner and mconnor are those product guys (at least for firefox)
18:02:37dmoseand they've both been helpful about calendaring stuff
18:02:39ssamvl: yes I understood
18:03:02dmoseanyway, in late april, there is a one-way freebusy workshop in washington dc co-sponsored by calconnect
18:03:11dmosein late may, there is the calconnect conference in boston itself
18:03:45dmoseand at some point, i think we should try and get as many calendar folks as possible in the same room to get to know each other and do some face-to-face work
18:03:58ssathat would be great
18:04:09dmosemy thinking for that last one is that could perhaps be part of a larger mozilla meeting
18:04:09mvlyes, it would
18:04:39dmoseso what i propose to do on the last one is talk to Frank Hecker about the possibility of putting together a larger meeting of that sort in the summer
18:04:45dmosehopefully June
18:05:00dmosei suspect it might end up being in Mountain View, were MoCo is located
18:05:07dmoseand then having a calendar piece of that
18:05:17dmosedoes that sound reasonable to folks?
18:05:20ssasounds good
18:05:32dmoseok, now onto the first two things
18:05:40mvlif it is a bigger mozilla meeting, we might be able to interest other hackers to work on calendar :)
18:05:47dmosemvl: indeed!
18:05:52ssagood point
18:05:52mvlso, sounds like a good plan
18:06:28dmosei myself kinda hope to make both the freebusy and calconnect meetings, though it depends on how much stuff i'm trying to juggle
18:06:51dmosei definitely would like mozilla to be represented at calconnect, and it would be good to be at the freebusy thing too
18:07:08dmoseare other folks interested in attending any of those meetings?
18:07:09mvlalthough we don't do any freebusy at the moment
18:07:23ssawe will do ;)
18:07:33lilmattmvl can drive to them both
18:07:34dmoseright, this wouldn't be an interopability thing, at least for us
18:07:39mvli won't have much time for trips like that.
18:07:51mvllilmatt: i have a car, but it can't drive under water :)
18:08:05dmoseit'd be more a "work with the community, try and understand what direction it's going, and help influence that direction" thing
18:08:54mvli might be able to spend some time on freebusy, after 0.3a2
18:09:02mvli already have a calIPeriod patch somewhere
18:09:23dmoseok, so we don't really have any volunteers besides me up front for the calconnect/freebusy meetings
18:09:49dmosebut i'd urge folks to at least consider it, if that's pragmatic
18:09:55mvlit's just too far away for me...
18:10:03ssaI will probably not be able to attend multiple events like this, and I would prefer the mozilla meeting
18:10:23mvlssa: yeah, that's my idea too
18:10:35dmoseright, the moz meeting is clearly the most important one for all of us
18:10:45mvlmaybe lilmatt likes to make a trip? :)
18:11:01lilmattneed to check my vaca balance and how much time I can take
18:11:04dmoseanyway, if folks are interested, feel free to ping me
18:11:14lilmattjust burned a lot getting married last fall
18:11:22ssadmose: anyway, if you could provide some pointers to the meetings I could perhaps convince somebody...
18:11:23dmoseit's possible that some non-corporate folks might be able to get funding from MoFo
18:11:26mvlheh :)
18:11:28dmosessa: will do
18:11:44dmoseanyway, the meetings aren't critical
18:11:49dmosethey just might be helpful
18:12:03dmoseok, so. next meeting: same time, same place?
18:12:13lilmattI read that as "same bat time"
18:12:20dmoselilmatt: pretty much :-)
18:12:33mvli'll be away next week by this time
18:12:37ssaI'll be on vacation next week and will return on the 20th
18:12:43mvlbut don't let that stop you
18:12:47dmoseoh, also
18:13:01dmosessa: are you gone all week?
18:13:15ssadmose: yes, from 10th to 20th
18:13:22***mvl has quit IRC (Input/output error)
18:13:38dmosessa: perhaps you can convince one or more folks on your team to attend?
18:13:50***mvl ( has joined the channel
18:14:00dmose(they're more than welcome to attend any of these meetings)
18:14:20dmosefinal thing: shaver suggested posting the IRC log of this meeting along with the notes
18:14:26dmosethis seems reasonable to me
18:14:46mvlfine with me
18:14:46dmoseand as far as i'm aware, nobody has talked about anything private here today
18:14:47dmoseany obections?
18:15:03ssano problem
18:15:25dmoseok, great
18:15:28ssadmose: sure, I will find somebody
18:15:45dmoseok, in that case: meeting adjourned!