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17:04:49	dmose	well, let's go ahead
17:05:10	dmose	anything missing from the agenda that we should cover?
17:05:42	dmose	i'll take that as a no, if there's something to add, feel free to /msg me
17:05:45	ssa	I'm fine with it
17:06:06	dmose	can i convince someone to sign up as the scribe for taking notes for this meeting?
17:06:43	dmose	(this will allow me to not have to split my attention between scribing and driving the meeting, which should make it go faster)
17:06:44	lilmatt	k
17:06:57	dmose	lilmatt: excellent; thanks
17:07:16	dmose	lilmatt: go ahead and just scribe to the agenda page directly
17:07:24	lilmatt	k
17:07:25	dmose	so, first item: action items from last week
17:07:42	dmose	item #1) module owner state of the world / evolution possibilities
17:08:11	dmose	i'm just getting down to work on that
17:08:20	dmose	i hope to have a draft up by this afternoon
17:08:25	dmose	at which point i'll post something in the newsgroup
17:08:46	dmose	sorry i wasn't able to complete that by now
17:08:49	mvl	does that include defining more modules?
17:09:19	dmose	yes, this will be an attempt at documenting the defacto state of the world more completely
17:09:28	dmose	eg webdav is actually owner by you, and i'm probably a peer
17:09:39	dmose	and caldav is owner by me, and jminta is probably a peer
17:09:40	dmose	etc
17:09:55	dmose	as well as all the things which are semi-owned, like l10n, a11y, etc
17:10:13	ssa	while we are at it: i would like to propose a new (small) module...
17:10:27	dmose	ok...
17:10:40	ssa	we are currently developing a wcap provider that connects to Sun's calendar server
17:11:13	ssa	in fact daniel is working on it and we would like to contribute it soon
17:11:45	ssa	so if you set up modules and peers, that would be one
17:11:45	mvl	is it an calICalendar implementation?
17:11:49	dmose	no objection from me. perhaps ask him to post a short blurb to the newsgroup about it, and then we can figure out details there?
17:12:07	ssa	yes and yes
17:12:56	dmose	ok, cool
17:12:57	ssa	ok, please go on...
17:13:23	dmose	next item: mvl, did you get a chance to talk to the camino folks about their review process?
17:13:42	mvl	dmose: i've send mail to josh, but didn't hear back
17:13:51	mvl	and then i kind of forgot about it...
17:13:53	dmose	heh
17:14:10	mvl	(i tried to also mail pinkerton, but that bounced)
17:14:14	dmose	ok, can you try and get that sorted out this week?
17:14:27	mvl	yeah, i hope i'll have more success
17:14:32	mvl	i'll ask around in #camino
17:14:36	dmose	sounds like a good plan
17:15:10	dmose	nex item: ctalbert was to take the lead on sorting out our QA picture
17:15:18	dmose	he's not here, but he did post to the newsgroup
17:15:22	dmose	i'll try and reply to that post today
17:15:48	dmose	i know he also sent mail to davel@mozilla.com to find out more about the regression suite work davel has been doing for the moz project as a whole
17:16:11	dmose	sounds like that's worthy of checking in on next week, and continuing newsgroup discussion in the meantime
17:16:35	dmose	next item: mac build/release lossage. that was sorted out last week. lilmatt, anything to add there?
17:17:21	lilmatt	Nope.
17:17:41	dmose	next item: ssa started a good discussion in the newsgroup about 1.0 features
17:17:45	dmose	(done)
17:17:55	dmose	next item: this meeting
17:17:56	dmose	(done)
17:18:07	dmose	ok, so Sunbird 0.3a2 status
17:18:22	dmose	mvl: you wanna take that one?
17:18:35	mvl	well
17:18:41	mvl	not much changed
17:18:43	mvl	some fixes
17:18:53	mvl	and some breakage, related to cairo
17:19:07	mvl	build is green now, but i'm not sure if that's with or without cairo
17:19:18	dmose	on linux, you mean?
17:19:24	mvl	yes
17:19:27	jminta	coop said it was --enable-default-toolkit=gtk2
17:19:27	ssitter	without i think
17:19:50	dmose	preed asked me whether we had wanted cairo for 0.3a2, and i told "not particularly"
17:19:59	dmose	so i think this was probably the fastest way to get things green again
17:20:25	mvl	just tried the build, and it seems to work ok
17:20:25	dmose	(i hope i gave him the right answer)
17:20:50	dmose	so where are we, at a high level?
17:21:03	mvl	close, i think
17:21:17	mvl	there's one bug, 306157, that i don't know how to fix
17:21:29	mvl	others seem to have patches, just require review and/or checkin
17:21:44	dmose	ok, so maybe a release candidate by early next week, if not sooner?
17:21:54	mvl	the sooner the better :)
17:22:08	mvl	i'll be away the weekend of eastern (around april 14th)
17:22:17	mvl	if we could have released before, that would be great
17:22:45	***	Mnyromyr (Mnyromyr@B2521176.7B0892CB.771966F7.IP) has joined the channel
17:22:46	dmose	are you planning on doing one or more RCs, like Lightning did, or just releasing straight out, like 0.3a1 did?
17:23:20	mvl	one RC, or a 'special' nightly, would be good, to get some testing
17:23:28	***	mschroeder is now known as mschroeder\|away
17:23:33	mvl	although i don't think we have a big enough community to get extra testing
17:23:40	mvl	those that test already run nightlies
17:23:46	dmose	sounds reasonable
17:24:09	dmose	ok, anything else 0.3a2-related that we should discuss now?
17:24:17	mvl	did we get much feedback on lightning RC's?
17:24:31	dmose	some, yeah
17:24:32	jminta	some agenda-tree stuff
17:24:41	dmose	there were people who hadn't been testing nightlies that tried the RCs
17:24:50	dmose	how many, i'm not sure
17:25:02	mvl	would asking for extra testing in the newsgroup and blog give the same feedback on a normal nightly?
17:25:09	mvl	'grab a nightly, test!'
17:25:14	dmose	seems likely
17:25:25	dmose	i mean, other than rebranding a specific nightly as an RC, that's all we really did
17:25:55	mvl	yeah
17:25:56	dmose	and by re-branding, i really just mean "called it that" not "changed any bits"
17:26:27	mvl	just some tweaking on the filenames, on stage.m.o?
17:26:54	dmose	not even that
17:26:59	dmose	just linked directly to the nightly from the wiki page]
17:27:31	lilmatt	Then when do we want to increment version.txt and the url to the release notes?
17:27:34	mvl	heh
17:27:38	mvl	we can do that for sunbird
17:28:40	dmose	ok, on to calendaring extension future?
17:28:45	mvl	ok
17:29:06	dmose	have folks seen the post i made yesterday about tiered support?
17:29:28	mvl	i just saw it
17:29:45	dmose	for references, that's here: http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.dev.apps.calendar/tree/browse_frm/thread/a727d18022e4a2f1/0a6a854772695593?rnum=41&_done=%2Fgroup%2Fmozilla.dev.apps.calendar%2Fbrowse_frm%2Fthread%2Fa727d18022e4a2f1%2F05ec9b9ff2dce33e%3Ftvc%3D1%26#doc_31f2c228d405353c
17:29:49	dmose	the last post on that page
17:29:58	mvl	but plans are good, but as long as nobody is willing to do the work...
17:30:06	dmose	right.
17:30:26	dmose	so my thinking is that right now, today, the only things that could possibly be tier-1
17:30:33	dmose	are sunbird and lightning-in-thunderbird
17:30:56	dmose	because nothing else has enough development energy around it
17:31:06	mvl	agreed
17:31:31	dmose	additionally, even if there were more inertia around the other project pieces, i tend to feel that having more than two tier-one apps is going to produce too much drag
17:31:42	mvl	sunbird-based-in-firefox can be tier-2
17:31:51	lilmatt	yes
17:31:52	mvl	needs a few tweaks to a makefile to make it work
17:32:27	mvl	xpfe-based-calendar-in-seamonkey can be tier-3, aka unsupported and removed from cvs :)
17:32:40	dmose	heh
17:33:08	dmose	anyone else have thoughts on my posting, the bug it links to, and the stuff we've just said here?
17:33:09	mvl	but really, the amount of people using seamonkey is pretty low
17:33:13	*	Mnyromyr kicks mvl :-P
17:33:13	mvl	to low to let it slow us down
17:33:23	ssa	so this boils down to the proposal that the extension is really only sunbird, just as an extension, right ?
17:33:34	mvl	ssa: that's my idea, yes
17:33:48	ssa	i would love to see this
17:34:09	ssa	and of course bringing lightning and sunbird even closer
17:34:19	mvl	I already have the extension working. You just shouldn't ever close the calendar window. You can't re-open :)
17:34:28	dmose	heh
17:35:01	lilmatt	mvl: sunbird in firefox, or in smonkey?
17:35:12	mvl	but i guess the current calendar.xpi has the same problems
17:35:15	dmose	so one thing i would like to propose, in relatively short order, is that we stop supporting/advertising calendar-xpi-for-thunderbird
17:35:21	mvl	lilmatt: sunbird-in-firefox
17:35:31	jminta	mvl: i did the same thing with Lightning
17:35:31	lilmatt	dmose: seconded
17:35:52	jminta	so my question is, what are the reasons for calling this sunbird-in-firefox, vs lightning-in-firefox?
17:36:16	dmose	so we still need to sort out our browser-calendar-story, whatever that is
17:36:20	mvl	jminta: because it uses sunbird's calendar.xul
17:36:33	dmose	whether it's "lightning", "calendar.xpi", "some other stub", or "nothing at all"
17:36:39	mvl	it's not integrated, like lightning will be
17:36:43	jminta	ok
17:36:58	dmose	i would propose that we hold off on that discussion a bit yet
17:37:03	lilmatt	sunbird-on-firefox is basically the same as sunbird-on-xulrunner
17:37:14	mvl	dmose: yes, but that's not related to supporting seamonkey
17:37:15	dmose	just because i think it can't possibly be finished inside this meeting
17:37:41	mvl	lilmatt: yes, that's why i think it won't do much harm to keep supporting that, even only as tier-2
17:37:41	ssa	may be this is a little bit blasphemous, but do we have download numbers for lightning and sunbird ? just to know the 'market share' ? but this has not to be discussed now...
17:38:03	dmose	no, but we should try and get them
17:38:22	dmose	it'll certainly be a useful statistic to track over time
17:38:42	dmose	to help understand what customers are using, and what sort of trends are happening
17:39:05	dmose	anyone care to take an action item to work with the sysadmin/release guys to get those numbers?
17:39:05	ssa	and where we should put our efforts
17:39:08	ssitter	a.m.o states "Total Downloads: 2030" for lightning
17:39:36	jminta	but i doubt most of our downloads are coming from there
17:39:56	dmose	i think the numbers are likely to be more meaningful once we do a simultaneous lightning/seamonkey release of the same version number
17:40:06	mvl	yeah
17:40:08	Mnyromyr	mvl: well, SM is moving towards toolkit/XULRunner anyway, so that problem will eventually dissolve - we just want to avoid overly suckage in the meanwhile; but we're well aware that (human) ressources are too low for that :-/
17:40:10	dmose	also, we can probably get useful information by tracking update.rdf hits
17:40:17	Mnyromyr	mvl: both on our and on your side
17:40:52	dmose	lilmatt: ok, since we don't seem to have a volunteer, assign that action item to me, and i'll see if i can find someone who's interested that i can hand it off to
17:40:57	lilmatt	k
17:41:19	dmose	so it sounds like the big things we've decided are
17:41:29	dmose	"drop calendar-xpi-in-tbird"
17:41:39	dmose	and "drop seamonkey support until it moves to toolkit"
17:41:52	dmose	is that the consensus understanding?
17:42:06	lilmatt	yes
17:42:15	lilmatt	at least, that['s what I'm writing
17:42:18	ssa	what does it mean for bugfixes, do they have to be tested against the extension ?
17:42:22	mvl	yes, i agree with that
17:42:26	dmose	ssa: i would say no
17:42:44	ssa	good.
17:43:03	dmose	even though we still haven't totally killed extension-in-fx, i don't think extension-in-anything can be a tier 1 platform
17:43:09	mvl	ssa: if you are doing big changes to the front-end, it would be appreciated if you could do a quick test in the extension :)
17:43:42	dmose	mvl: we already have two things we need to test in: sunbird & ltn-in-tbird
17:43:50	ssa	it's just that tbe becomes desperate about it
17:43:56	dmose	i think that adding a third is just too much
17:44:05	lilmatt	so basically the third major decision is "drop xpfe altogether"
17:44:19	dmose	we want to be able to iterate quickly
17:44:27	dmose	and get all these interesting things we care about into 1.0
17:44:29	ssa	mvl: you mean the view mock-up ?
17:44:42	mvl	the problem is that we have two calendar.xpi files. I really want to drop one
17:45:16	***	jminta is now known as jminta\|away
17:45:20	dmose	lilmatt: that's my understanding, yes
17:45:32	lilmatt	mvl: which 2?
17:45:55	mvl	lilmatt: resouces/content/calendar.xul and sunbird/base/content/calendar.xul
17:46:04	mvl	(hope i got the paths right)
17:46:08	dmose	mvl: i don't think it's bad if you or someone else wants to continue to keep calendar.xpi on life-support. but i'm less convinced that it's reasonable that everyone else should have to slow down their rate of contributions to help that
17:46:17	lilmatt	so can we lose the resources one?
17:46:26	mvl	lilmatt: yes, that's my suggestion
17:46:31	lilmatt	seconded
17:46:50	mvl	dmose: i'm not saying that everything has to be testing in three apps
17:47:25	mvl	i just said that, once we have dropped one calendar.xul, it would be appreciated if you could do a real quick test to see if the exension still starts
17:47:49	dmose	just for major architecture changes?
17:48:08	ssitter	testing means sunbird + ltn-in-tbird-1.5 + ltn-in-tbird-2.0 + ltn-in-tbird-3.0 * 3 platforms at the moment
17:48:23	lilmatt	ouch
17:48:28	dmose	sorta
17:48:35	dmose	in fact, the situation is a little more complicated
17:48:49	dmose	in the sense that there are different kinds of testing being talked about here
17:48:56	dmose	one is "what should a developer have to test before checking in?"
17:49:15	dmose	another is "what does the test matrix look like for more qa-focussed folks"
17:49:41	dmose	today, at least, i only test most of my changes in lightning on one platform
17:49:43	mvl	I only have a linux build env, so that's all i can do reasonable tests on...
17:49:55	dmose	unless i have reason to believe that my changes are likely to break sunbird or some other platform
17:50:07	dmose	additionally, i pretty much just test my changes against the trunk
17:50:28	dmose	and assume that problems that i miss in testing will turn up at some point after checkin
17:50:36	dmose	when i'll deal with them as necessary
17:50:43	ssitter	i think in terms of nightly builds regression tesing
17:50:43	mvl	yeah, i do that too
17:50:45	dmose	i don't know if this is similar to the way other people work
17:50:48	dmose	but i suspect so
17:50:51	mvl	except that I use sunbird
17:51:16	dmose	and i mostly assume that if something works in sunbird, it will also work in the xpi
17:51:30	ssa	I think that even two calendar apps are too much for this small group (devs and qa). focussing on one single calendar app and bringing it into shape is an ambitious goal (remember the road map). so please let us abandon the extension and may be even think about freezing sunbird until Lightning 1.0 is done.
17:51:35	dmose	and for when that's not the case, somebody wil report the problem later
17:52:34	mvl	ssa: alot of work in backend work. For those, the front-end doesn't matter much
17:53:02	mvl	ssa: we should try to unite as mcuh code as possible, but i prefer to have two apps for now
17:53:06	dmose	well, i think a lot of this can be solved by the division of effort
17:53:16	dmose	in the sense that, if people work on whatever app they want
17:53:29	ssa	yes, more unification would be great
17:53:38	mvl	but i'm known to be slow at changes. I only changed to FF recently :)
17:53:38	dmose	and are willing to be responsive if their checkins break one of the other apps\
17:53:47	dmose	i think that gets us a lot of the way there
17:54:01	dmose	qa folks can work similarly
17:54:09	dmose	they could be responsible for QAing what they think is important
17:54:23	dmose	ok, so.
17:54:25	dmose	5 minutes left
17:54:31	dmose	and there's clearly lots more discussion to be had.
17:54:35	dmose	how about this:
17:54:57	dmose	continue this discussion in the newsgroup, and keep it on the agenda for next week
17:55:08	ssa	you're absolutely right. it's just that we are thinking about our browser story where it seems that we are not sure about our calendar story yet.
17:56:15	mvl	dmose: sounds good
17:56:24	dmose	ok, 1.0 brainstorming
17:56:28	dmose	well, we did a lot of that in the newsgroup
17:56:54	dmose	and i think we've gotten to the point where we'll get more benefit from defining our audiences a bit more clearly than by doing more brainstorming immediately
17:57:15	dmose	so i propose trying to put together a meeting which includes mconnor and beltzner
17:57:26	dmose	about both imaginary users and product definition
17:57:49	dmose	and keep both those items on the agenda for next week as well
17:58:01	dmose	i'll try and arrange the meeting by tomorrow for sometime early next week and post details
17:58:06	dmose	does that sound reasonable?
17:58:30	mvl	sounds good
17:58:45	mvl	we might need to do some preparation work
17:59:12	dmose	what did you have in mind?
17:59:51	dmose	in some ways, i thought this would be a good way to have beltzner and mconnor help direct us on what sort of work would help us get the most bang for our buck
18:00:42	ssa	may be we should try to find the users/product stuff offline and discuss the proposals in a meeting with those guys ?
18:00:44	mvl	we could start with trying to define some users
18:01:07	dmose	sure, having some pre-discussion sounds reasonable
18:01:17	dmose	let's have it in the followup to the newsgroup thread that i'll start with the meeting info
18:01:21	mvl	ssa: that's what dmose is proposing :)
18:01:54	ssa	mvl: ok, I see
18:02:08	dmose	ok, so, final item: upcoming conferences / face-to-face meetings
18:02:18	dmose	there are three things that are part of this
18:02:20	mvl	ssa: beltzner and mconnor are those product guys (at least for firefox)
18:02:37	dmose	and they've both been helpful about calendaring stuff
18:02:39	ssa	mvl: yes I understood
18:03:02	dmose	anyway, in late april, there is a one-way freebusy workshop in washington dc co-sponsored by calconnect
18:03:11	dmose	in late may, there is the calconnect conference in boston itself
18:03:45	dmose	and at some point, i think we should try and get as many calendar folks as possible in the same room to get to know each other and do some face-to-face work
18:03:58	ssa	that would be great
18:04:09	dmose	my thinking for that last one is that could perhaps be part of a larger mozilla meeting
18:04:09	mvl	yes, it would
18:04:39	dmose	so what i propose to do on the last one is talk to Frank Hecker about the possibility of putting together a larger meeting of that sort in the summer
18:04:45	dmose	hopefully June
18:05:00	dmose	i suspect it might end up being in Mountain View, were MoCo is located
18:05:07	dmose	and then having a calendar piece of that
18:05:17	dmose	does that sound reasonable to folks?
18:05:20	ssa	sounds good
18:05:32	dmose	ok, now onto the first two things
18:05:40	mvl	if it is a bigger mozilla meeting, we might be able to interest other hackers to work on calendar :)
18:05:47	dmose	mvl: indeed!
18:05:52	ssa	good point
18:05:52	mvl	so, sounds like a good plan
18:06:28	dmose	i myself kinda hope to make both the freebusy and calconnect meetings, though it depends on how much stuff i'm trying to juggle
18:06:51	dmose	i definitely would like mozilla to be represented at calconnect, and it would be good to be at the freebusy thing too
18:07:08	dmose	are other folks interested in attending any of those meetings?
18:07:09	mvl	although we don't do any freebusy at the moment
18:07:23	ssa	we will do ;)
18:07:33	lilmatt	mvl can drive to them both
18:07:34	dmose	right, this wouldn't be an interopability thing, at least for us
18:07:39	mvl	i won't have much time for trips like that.
18:07:51	mvl	lilmatt: i have a car, but it can't drive under water :)
18:08:05	dmose	it'd be more a "work with the community, try and understand what direction it's going, and help influence that direction" thing
18:08:54	mvl	i might be able to spend some time on freebusy, after 0.3a2
18:09:02	mvl	i already have a calIPeriod patch somewhere
18:09:23	dmose	ok, so we don't really have any volunteers besides me up front for the calconnect/freebusy meetings
18:09:49	dmose	but i'd urge folks to at least consider it, if that's pragmatic
18:09:55	mvl	it's just too far away for me...
18:10:03	ssa	I will probably not be able to attend multiple events like this, and I would prefer the mozilla meeting
18:10:23	mvl	ssa: yeah, that's my idea too
18:10:35	dmose	right, the moz meeting is clearly the most important one for all of us
18:10:45	mvl	maybe lilmatt likes to make a trip? :)
18:11:01	lilmatt	need to check my vaca balance and how much time I can take
18:11:04	dmose	anyway, if folks are interested, feel free to ping me
18:11:14	lilmatt	just burned a lot getting married last fall
18:11:22	ssa	dmose: anyway, if you could provide some pointers to the meetings I could perhaps convince somebody...
18:11:23	dmose	it's possible that some non-corporate folks might be able to get funding from MoFo
18:11:26	mvl	heh :)
18:11:28	dmose	ssa: will do
18:11:44	dmose	anyway, the meetings aren't critical
18:11:49	dmose	they just might be helpful
18:12:03	dmose	ok, so. next meeting: same time, same place?
18:12:13	lilmatt	I read that as "same bat time"
18:12:20	dmose	lilmatt: pretty much :-)
18:12:33	mvl	i'll be away next week by this time
18:12:37	ssa	I'll be on vacation next week and will return on the 20th
18:12:43	mvl	but don't let that stop you
18:12:47	dmose	oh, also
18:13:01	dmose	ssa: are you gone all week?
18:13:15	ssa	dmose: yes, from 10th to 20th
18:13:22	***	mvl has quit IRC (Input/output error)
18:13:38	dmose	ssa: perhaps you can convince one or more folks on your team to attend?
18:13:50	***	mvl (michiel@moz-FC59C0AE.xs4all.nl) has joined the channel
18:14:00	dmose	(they're more than welcome to attend any of these meetings)
18:14:20	dmose	final thing: shaver suggested posting the IRC log of this meeting along with the notes
18:14:26	dmose	this seems reasonable to me
18:14:29	lilmatt	k
18:14:46	mvl	fine with me
18:14:46	dmose	and as far as i'm aware, nobody has talked about anything private here today
18:14:47	dmose	any obections?
18:15:03	ssa	no problem
18:15:25	dmose	ok, great
18:15:28	ssa	dmose: sure, I will find somebody
18:15:45	dmose	ok, in that case: meeting adjourned!

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