Calendar:Status Meetings:2007-05-09:Log

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ctalbert: Well, then let's get the party started, I suppose
[09:04am] ctalbert: The agenda for the Calendar Status meeting is at:
[09:04am] xFallenAngel: yep. lilmatt: you around?
[09:05am] ctalbert: doesn't appear to be
[09:05am] ctalbert: He's marked away on AIM too
[09:06am] ctalbert: Let's go ahead and do what we can, because I have another meeting 
in 30 mins.
[09:06am] ctalbert: In hopes that lilmatt will join soon, let's start with the AMO categories
[09:07am] xFallenAngel: Ok. Archaeopteryx wanted to write up some descriptions for me, 
since I didn't get to doing that. We need a description for each category
[09:07am] ctalbert: What are the categories?
[09:07am] Archaeopteryx: [17:00:44] Archaeopteryx: Fallen|away:
[09:08am] ssitter joined the chat room.
[09:08am] xFallenAngel: sec
[09:08am] xFallenAngel: bug 375050
[09:08am] xFallenAngel: c10
[09:09am] ctalbert: I see
[09:09am] xFallenAngel: Archaeopteryx: Thanks, that looks nice.
[09:09am] ctalbert: Archaeopteryx: very nice
[09:09am] Archaeopteryx: maybe there should be a language packs category, too
[09:10am] ctalbert: Wouldn't that be handled under the L10N project?
[09:10am] sipaq joined the chat room.
[09:10am] ctalbert: Hi sipaq, ssitter, status meeting is here today
[09:10am] xFallenAngel: There will be a Language Support and Translation category, 
but I'd say just take the same text as with firefox
[09:10am] ctalbert: +1
[09:10am] Archaeopteryx: ok
[09:10am] Archaeopteryx: ctalbert: aol user?
[09:11am] ctalbert: rhlonekinshar
[09:11am] ctalbert: (long story)
[09:11am] sipaq: ctalbert: ok, I'm leaving the call
[09:12am] sipaq: have you guys already finished talking about 0.5?
[09:12am] xFallenAngel: The only open point is the Themes, Wil suggested to just 
make one general category for themes, since sunbird is so "young".
[09:12am] xFallenAngel: no, we put that towards the end
[09:12am] ctalbert: I would agree with that.  I don't know why we would need more 
than one actually
[09:12am] • ctalbert looks at Fx
[09:13am] xFallenAngel: Icon packs, full themes etc
[09:13am] ctalbert: oh I see
[09:13am] ctalbert: I think we can start with just a "themes" category and then 
branch out as we grow
[09:14am] sipaq: I agree
[09:14am] ssitter: Firefox uses Miscellaneous, Sports, Nature, Animals, Retro, Compact, 
OS Integration, Modern, Large
[09:14am] ssitter: but we don't need that much
[09:14am] ctalbert: true.  Here's the link, just as an FYI:
[09:14am] ssitter: one is ok I'd said
[09:15am] xFallenAngel: Ok, so I'll take care of the remaining steps for that. I
 guess we can go to 0.5 Status now 
[09:15am] ctalbert: cool.
[09:15am] ctalbert: Sipaq, want to take the lead?
[09:15am] sipaq: sure
[09:16am] sipaq: as far as I can see, we have only the Mac 10.3 bug outstanding
[09:16am] sipaq: and this bug has a patch, wchich still needs to be tested
[09:16am] sipaq: IMO nothing is holding up an RC1 right now
[09:16am] sipaq: we just need someone to package a multi-locale lightning builds
[09:17am] xFallenAngel: was that timezones bug fixed that required l10n? I didnt 
quite follow that...
[09:17am] sipaq: xFallenAngel: yes, that bug was fixed 2 days ago
[09:17am] xFallenAngel: great 
[09:17am] ctalbert: I can call Matt and see if he has time for that.  If not, maybe
 I can package the lightning builds...I don't know if I have everything required.
[09:17am] sipaq: and as far as I can see, most localizers have already fixed their locales
[09:17am] ssitter: you can't package Lightning until all the locales have been fixed too
[09:18am] ctalbert: Good point
[09:18am] xFallenAngel: how many are missing?
[09:18am] Siwy4444 joined the chat room.
[09:18am] sipaq: ssitter: do you have an overview, which locales still need fixing, 
meaning their tinderboxen are green?
[09:18am] ssitter:
[09:19am] ssitter: 14 are still orange
[09:19am] ssitter: 7 are back to green
[09:19am] ctalbert: sipaq, about the Mac OS X bug (372287), I thought that lilmatt 
recommended we go ahead and check in Daniel's patch to let the Tbox build it.  I thought
 lilmatt said he could test the patch if he had binaries from a tbox.  But, he can't 
 build it himself on 10.3.
[09:20am] sipaq: ctalbert: yes, can you do the checkin?
[09:20am] sipaq: ssitter: can you poke the locale owners in md.l10n?
[09:20am] ctalbert: Yeah, I can do that.  It also looks like Tony stepped up to test 
the patch (comment 16)
[09:21am] ctalbert: sipaq, I will give Tony a day to test, and then based on his 
recommendation will check it in.  If it doesn't pass his test, no need to check it in.
[09:21am] sipaq: ctalbert: right
[09:21am] ssitter: sipaq: this morning I also added comments to the existing l10n bugs
[09:22am] daniel: remember: that patch is just a wild guess from me...
[09:22am] daniel:
[09:22am] ctalbert: true
[09:22am] sipaq: ssitter: great, BTW you should really be added to our team page as 
our l10n liaison. Send me a short bio
[09:22am] sipaq: Hey daniel, how is it in the states?
[09:22am] daniel: nice, big
[09:23am] daniel: lots of intersting people here
[09:23am] daniel: we should really put more focus on caldav
[09:23am] daniel: it's moving forward...
[09:23am] ctalbert: It's moving rather quickly too, as I understand
[09:23am] daniel: all people looking for good clients... 
[09:23am] ctalbert: (compared to 2445, 2446 etc)
[09:23am] xFallenAngel: daniel: were you able to slap someone at yahoo or google to 
use caldav? 
[09:23am] daniel: ctalbert: yes
[09:24am] sipaq: ssitter: can you tell l10n owners, that we will release RC1 without 
their locale, if they do not fix their strings by Friday evening
[09:24am] sipaq: I will blog about it, too
[09:24am] daniel: actually google is attending the roundtable, dont know what they are planning
[09:24am] daniel: maybe caldav soon...
[09:24am] ssitter: btw, what is the status of the l10n bugzilla contact that should be
 created to watch l10n changes in calendar?
[09:24am] sipaq: ssitter: I don't know how to create an alias
[09:24am] ctalbert: sipaq, ssitter, I will make a blog post with an update and announce
 a test day for next week (hopefully with locales)
[09:25am] ctalbert: ssitter, like the QAContacts?
[09:25am] ssitter: I think there was something discussed like that some weeks ago
[09:25am] sipaq: ctalbert: can you ask mozilla people, if they could create a 
calendar-l10n@mozilla.bugs bugzilla alias for us that localizers can watch?
[09:26am] ctalbert: I can. I'll ask the QA guys that work on the L10N stuff, they 
should know how to go about doing that.
[09:26am] sipaq: ctalbert: yes, exactly like the QA contacts
[09:26am] • ctalbert imagines we file a bug somewhere....
[09:26am] ctalbert: So, to wrap up:
[09:27am] sipaq: ctalbert: I'll file a bug, but if you poke someone, it might actually 
be in this century
[09:27am] sipaq:
[09:27am] ctalbert: heh
[09:27am] sipaq: s/be/be fixed
[09:27am] ctalbert: sipaq, I have another question
[09:27am] ctalbert: and daniel
[09:28am] daniel: ok
[09:28am] sipaq: yes?
[09:28am] ctalbert: What about mschroeder 's recent patch to fix the iMIP bar alignment.  
It's a very small XUL only change and we tested it on several Tbirds/OS pairs.
[09:28am] ctalbert: Can we take it for 0.5?
[09:28am] ctalbert: mschroeder:  have the bug number handy?
[09:29am] mschroeder: 361634
[09:29am] mschroeder: oh no
[09:29am] ctalbert: 379876
[09:29am] ctalbert: I think that's it ^
[09:29am] mschroeder: yep
[09:29am] • daniel looks
[09:30am] sipaq: ctalbert: if you have a good feeling, then we should take it
[09:30am] sipaq: ctalbert: but I'll blame you, if something goes wrong 
[09:30am] ctalbert: I'm fine with that.
[09:30am] ctalbert:
[09:30am] mvl joined the chat room.
[09:30am] mvl was promoted to operator by ChanServ.
[09:30am] daniel: go
[09:30am] ctalbert: thanks. I'll check it in later today.
[09:30am] daniel: no prob
[09:31am] ctalbert: Ok.  Should I summarize things quickly?
[09:32am] sipaq: ctalbert: that would be great
[09:32am] ctalbert: xFallenAngel & Archaeopteryx will finalize all the issues with 
the categories AMO stuff
[09:32am] ctalbert: ssitter will poke Localizers about getting their stuff fixed for
 Friday evening
[09:32am] ctalbert: I will post an update on status to the blog about this and next 
week's test day
[09:33am] ctalbert: I will call lilmatt and see about building a localized lightning
 next week
[09:33am] ctalbert: I already poked Tony about his status on the Mac OS X bug, if 
that works out, I'll check in the change
[09:33am] ctalbert: sipaq will file a bug about the L10N watcher
[09:33am] ctalbert: I'll poke people about it
[09:33am] sipaq: ssitter will send sipaq a short bio, so that he can be added to the 
team page on the project website
[09:33am] sipaq:
[09:34am] ctalbert: mschroeder:  do you have cvs access, or do you need me to check 
in your patch?
[09:34am] mschroeder: ctalbert: you have to check it in
[09:34am] ctalbert: cool, no problem.
[09:34am] ctalbert: Did I miss anything?
[09:34am] • ctalbert is in another meeting now
[09:34am] xFallenAngel: I have another concern, something I think we totally neglected 
during the F2F meeting: With regards to 1.0, what are we going to do about the ~600 open 
non-enhancement bugs that we have? Its nice to have new features, but we also want existing 
features to work and not have bugs.
[09:35am] daniel: of course
[09:35am] ctalbert: We need to look at that, for sure.
[09:35am] • ctalbert wonders when we'll be able to do that
[09:36am] xFallenAngel: I know some are duplicates and will go away when we implement 
the new features, but its still a lot
[09:36am] daniel: yes, IMO the only way we have is to prio them
[09:36am] xFallenAngel: I don't know if this problem goes away by itself, thats why I
 brought this up
[09:36am] daniel: most wanted get fixed first etc
[09:37am] ssitter: ok, so RC is planned for Friday? Will it be a real RC or an almost RC?
 (I think of things like official branding, no firefox support, version, update channel, ...)
[09:37am] ctalbert: We could start out by prioritizing them with the "target release" flag.
[09:37am] ctalbert: ssitter, I think we should do a real release
[09:37am] ctalbert: er RC
[09:37am] sipaq: ssitter: this should be a real RC
[09:37am] ctalbert: So, we need people to execute ssitter's checklist
[09:39am] ctalbert: volunteers?
[09:39am] gavin_ left the chat room. (Ping timeout)
[09:39am] ssitter: not to forget preparing the release notes
[09:40am] ssitter: ctalbert: someone with cvs and stage account, I don't know if tinderbox 
access is required
[09:40am] ssitter: too
[09:40am] ctalbert: lilmatt....
[09:40am] sipaq: I'll have to go to a meeting
[09:40am] sipaq: CU guys
[09:40am] ctalbert: ok
[09:41am] lilmatt: I just woke up.  I'll check back once I shower and am at the office
[09:41am] ctalbert: ssitter: Let me see if I can find lilmatt and we'll see if he can do 
it or walk me through it.
[09:41am] xFallenAngel: create a bug, mark it blocking, put the checklist in it. I could 
probably do some things i.e remove firefox support.
[09:41am] ctalbert: xFallenAngel: the checklist is on the wiki
[09:41am] xFallenAngel: ah
[09:41am] sipaq left the chat room. (Quit: Chatzilla 0.9.73 [BrowserTrunk])
[09:41am] xFallenAngel: but a bug would probably be nice anyway, just to ease tracking
[09:42am] ctalbert:
[09:42am] ctalbert: true
[09:43am] ssitter: (some of the items might be out-of-date or invalid)
[09:43am] snotling left the chat room. (Quit: Parti)
[09:43am] xFallenAngel: I'll make one, one sec
[09:43am] ctalbert: ok
[09:44am] gavin_ joined the chat room.
[09:45am] xFallenAngel: But back to the 600 bugs: Is there a way we can reduce the number
 of bugs or prioritze them in in the course of a testday?
[09:45am] xFallenAngel: (bug 380164 for the rc1 stuff)
[09:46am] • ssitter thinks that if lilmatt has time he probably should write down what steps
 are required to switch a tinderbox/l10n-tinderbox into release mode and back
[09:46am] ctalbert: xFallenAngel: thanks for the bug
[09:46am] ctalbert: xFallenAngel: there may be a way to do this on a test day.  
I was also thinking the same thing.
[09:46am] mvl: ehm, i doubt it
[09:47am] mvl: prioritizing is for developers, not for users (=testers)
[09:47am] xFallenAngel: Thats true, that was my second thought. Users will prioritize by what 
they want most.
[09:47am] ctalbert: mvl: yeah, that's the one thing that gave me pause too
[09:48am] xFallenAngel: but I don't know how we should manage all those bugs with our limited 
number of developers.
[09:48am] xFallenAngel: So I think if we can assume that testers == power users, we can somehow 
integrate them to help us
[09:48am] ctalbert: maybe we should have a "developer bug triage day"
[09:49am] mschroeder: We should somehow categorize all those bugs (more detailed than components).
[09:49am] mvl: to me, bug counts means nothing
[09:49am] ctalbert: right, but there are a set of those out there we want to address for 1.0
[09:50am] ctalbert: if we can flag some as more important, we can ask folks in the community to
 help out by starting on patches for those
[09:51am] xFallenAngel: I think what would help us be organized is to not (only) put priorities
 in the bugs, but maybe we can make a wiki page. The page could contain bugs sorted by how severe 
 they are, partly in relation to each other. I.e you can say "bug AAA seems to be more important 
 than the bug BBB thats already on the page, I'll put it on top of that one."
[09:52am] xFallenAngel: I also think that bug numbers are not the most important thing, but we
 don't want to have buggy code with a lot of features. We should at least know where the "important"
  bugs are.
[09:52am] mvl: what does 'important' mean?
[09:52am] mvl: using a wiki to do things that bugzilla already can do sounds silly to me
[09:52am] ssitter: by going throught the roadmap you could set 'Target Milestone' and/or 'Priority'
 on the bugs
[09:52am] mvl: bugzilla has a severity field. you can use that
[09:53am] xFallenAngel: but can you graph bugs as in "A is more important than B" ?
[09:53am] ctalbert: I was thinking we could use the "target milestone" field to indicate bugs we
 want for 1.0
[09:53am] mvl: you can sort on severity
[09:53am] ctalbert: but no, you can do a graph of that.
[09:54am] ssitter: mmh, severity (impact) of a bug is not the same as the priority to add it
 to a particular release
[09:55am] mvl: you have severity and priority. That's enough. We should not copy that all
 into a wiki (which will be out-of-sync most of the time)
[09:55am] ssitter: agreed
[09:55am] xFallenAngel: Hm ok. I'd be fine with priorities/milestones. I just fear that
 at some point we will have an unmanagable number of bugs marked for 1.0, when we get 
 towards 1.0 that would definitly hold us up.
[09:56am] ctalbert: And we need some people to go through bz and tag bugs w.r.t. 
milestone/priority/severity too.
[09:57am] ssitter: xFallenAngel: in that case 1.0 is not ready and must be shifted 
or the bugs need to be triaged again
[09:58am] xFallenAngel: maybe we could go with a policy of "not more than xxx bugs with 
target 1.0, if so then try to move other 1.0 bugs either to post-1.0 or a lower release"
[09:59am] mvl: no. bug count does not mean a thing!
[10:01am] ssitter: this is correct, look at all the open Firefox and Thunderbird bug numbers 
[10:01am] ctalbert: I think he just meant as a way to ensure we fix *some* of those for 1.0.
[10:02am] xFallenAngel: So we conclude that we just need to prioritize and mark targets 
and hope that all goes well? 
[10:03am] ctalbert: I think we can do that, and we can add some markings for "good first
 bugs" so that we can recruit more people to help.
[10:05am] ssitter is now known as ssitter|afk.
[10:05am] ctalbert: I think we're out of time here.  Discussion can continue, of course, 
but I'll cut from here and post this to the wiki.