Calendar:QA Chat:2006-08-10:IRCLog

ctalbert: Alright, welcome everyone. We're going to start the calendar QA
Chat now.
celina63: hooray!
ctalbert: That's the spirit
ctalbert: The agenda is in the channel topic.
ctalbert: First, who would like to put the IRC log from this meeting onto
the wiki page of the meeting?
celina63: I can do that
ctalbert: awesome. Thanks
ctalbert: First, we had an excellent calendar Test case writing day. Thanks
again.
ctalbert: I listed several things that were difficult about that day.  Does
anyone have more feedback/insight?
jminta: testcase vs. bug?
ctalbert: Oh right, that distinction was not well addressed.
ctalbert: Good point. Another one that didn't make it into that list was to
have a place for the author of the test case to include their name on it.
ctalbert: Going through the wiki change long for two hours was not fun.
celina63: def
celina63: that would have been nice
ctalbert: Any ideas on how to prevent duplicate edits?
celina63: I almost deleted another tester's duplicate TC yesterday because I
thought I'd accidentally entered it twice
celina63: I was thinking we could each "claim" a section we're working on
celina63: so for instance, yesterday I was working on the Keyboard Nav for
the menu
ctalbert: That's a good idea
celina63: so I could have "claimed" that, and then others would know that
it was covered
*** Ehwaz has joined #calendar-qa.
ctalbert: hello ehwaz
Ehwaz: Hi ctalbert
Ehwaz: I didn't forget :-)
ctalbert: I'm glad. We're currently discussing feedback from the Test Case
Writing Day. Do you have any ideas about things that could have done better?
ctalbert: The agenda for the meeting is here:
http://wiki.mozilla.org/Calendar:QA_Chat:2006-08-10
ctalbert: Those edit links caused a ton of confusion
*** dmose has joined #calendar-qa.
ctalbert: hi dmose
dmose: Good morning
dmose: Sounds like test case writing day was quite the success!
ctalbert: It was indeed.
celina63: I'm not sure if there's a way around the Edit links, though...
isn't that a wiki standard?
jminta: well, perhaps we could break some of the sections into their own
pages?
celina63: can they perhaps be modified, to at least describe which section
they edit?
jminta: then the 'edit' button at the top could be sued
ctalbert: I'd have to expiriment with the formatting, and see if I could
get them to look like they belong better to the section they refer to.
jminta: used*
celina63: I know a mouse-over shows which section they edit, but not everyone
thinks of mouse-over  :D
dmose: Congratulations!
ctalbert: jminta: that's the lawyer in you trying to come out.
jminta: :)
ctalbert: celina63: true
*** nightrat has joined #calendar-qa.
ctalbert: Hi nightrat
Ehwaz: I found the examples right underneath the template confusing.  I thing
you should only show the Template and the instructions, not what everybody
did.  I first thought that I had to implement and use ALL of them.
nightrat: hi all
Ehwaz: hi nightrat
xFallenAngel: sorry im late, i have another comment about claiming categories...
xFallenAngel: well claiming something is kinda general. That might work great
for future test cases, but on semi-competitive events, claiming would break
things a bit.I would take a category where i think there are lots of test
cases, claim it, and nobody else can use my category? 
*** whoopsbob has signed off IRC (Ping timeout).
ctalbert: I kind of envision a claim for a time period
celina63: I wouldn't claim a whole category, just a portion of the app being tested
ssitter: you could create new pages like
http://wiki.mozilla.org/Calendar:Test_Case_List/foobar for different sections
celina63: so I would say "Ok, I've got Menu Keyboard Navigation covered"
celina63: while someone else could do toolbar navigation, etc
ctalbert: that's a good idea too
Ehwaz: I would implement that, since it avoids the chance of 2 or more users
covering the same issues
* ctalbert nods
ctalbert: This is great feedback. I want to give the main mozilla QA folk a
wiki page of lessons learned, in case they want to try this as well.
*** bobwhoops has joined #calendar-qa.
xFallenAngel: or maybe a page to put those comments, so you can first post "I
am doing xxx" and when you have no more ideas, then you remove that comment
again so that others can continue the work if they have another idea
ctalbert: I think we need to move forward now, to the Preparation for the
August 22 Calendar Community Test Day
xFallenAngel: ok
Ehwaz: k
ctalbert: xFallenAngel: good idea
dmose: ctalbert: I'm sure davel and marcia would be pretty excited to see that
Ehwaz: time limited claims?
ctalbert: I think he means the "lessons learned"
dmose: y
ctalbert: If anyone has seen the wiki page for the Calendar Community Test
Day, you might notice it's a little incomplete. :-)
*** dmose has signed off IRC (Quit: Rheet!).
Ehwaz: yeah, I mean as in another way like XFallenAngel mentioned: instead of
comments, use time limited claims
celina63: haha, just a bit
celina63: (incomplete)
ctalbert: There is a lot to be done in preparation for that day. I have to
move the test cases to litmus and I'm the only one who can do that because
of the way litmus currently works, and I need to help get the publicity
together for that day.
ctalbert: So, I was wondering if I could snag one or two people to put
together a wiki page for the Calendar Community Test Day?
celina63: just notify /.  :)
Ehwaz: lol
xFallenAngel: i came here via slashdot :P
Ehwaz: me 2
ctalbert: You can essentially copy the Firefox test day wiki page at:
http://wiki.mozilla.org/Mozilla_QA_Community:Firefox_2.0b1_Community_Test_Day
jminta: ctalbert: is this aiming to be a litmus centered day or no?
ctalbert: jminta: that's right
ctalbert: I'll help review the page you come up with, but it'd be nice for
me to be able to concentrate on some of this other stuff
ctalbert: Any takers?
celina63: I can attempt it  :)
jminta: i can spare a few hours to help
ctalbert: Sweet, thanks
xFallenAngel: I'll help too if needed
celina63: oh good  :)
ctalbert: Great. Thank ya'll.
xFallenAngel: when we are finished then we should also not forget to add a
note to http://wiki.mozilla.org/Mozilla_QA_Community
ctalbert: xFallenAngel: good point.
ctalbert: I'll see if I can handle that part.
Ehwaz: not that hard, especially since the Calender Day Event looks nice and
empty
ctalbert: :-)
ctalbert: And that brings us to jminta's blocking flags discussion
* ctalbert turns the floor over to jminta
jminta: :)
jminta: I'm realizing that this discussion is just a subset of 'ways QA can
help in Bugzilla'
jminta: so I'm going to try to put a more comprehensive wiki-page up
ctalbert: Ok
jminta: but for now, let me encourage everyone to look through bugzilla and
find bugs that might be candidates for blocking the upcoming 0.3 release
jminta: these are bugs that are bad enough that we'd rather spend the time to
fix, and release later, than release sooner with them
jminta: also, they should be bugs that fall into one of the categories listed
at http://wiki.mozilla.org/Calendar:0.3_Release_Status
jminta: if you find a such a bug, please set the blocking0.3 flag (on the
right side of the bug-page) to ?
jminta: then the release drivers can come along and decide whether they feel
the bug really should block the release
jminta: this helps us make sure that nothing falls through the cracks for 0.3
* jminta hopes that made sense
jminta: question/comments?
Ehwaz: It did
xFallenAngel: ok, so we can go ahead and mark everything we would like in 0.3
as blocking0.3, then someone else can decide if this is right?
*** Taliesin has joined #calendar-qa.
jminta: well, this isn't a wish-list
*** dmose has joined #calendar-qa.
* ctalbert waves at Taliesin
Taliesin: hi
Ehwaz: hi
jminta: you should makr bugs that significantly impact the user's experience
with the product
xFallenAngel: thats the point, I will probably hesitate each time, not wanting
to produce to much work for the release drivers, leading to me not setting
this flag often
jminta: but if you have doubts, go ahead and set it
ctalbert: xFallenAngel, if you see something that seems serious, then set it.
jminta: because it really only takes 5 minutes to evaluate a nommination
Ehwaz: i would set it, it's better to have a bit more work then leaving the
bug in the software
jminta: also, please include a comment explaining why you feel it deserves
to be blocking
xFallenAngel: ok, I'll give it a try. I guess I will see if all my
blocking0.3 are removed :P
jminta: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=296202 shows a good
example of how this happens
jminta: sebastian gave clear reasons for why the bug should block, and we
agreed
xFallenAngel: ok :)
Ehwaz: Now, that's a risk, since it all boils down to personal taste.  For
some people, one bug is going to be a big threatn while it isn't objectively.
celina63: so set that to ?, and the drivers will decided to set to + or -?
jminta: yes
celina63: gotcha
jminta: if drivers set it to -, they'll also include a comment explaining why
jminta: most often it will say "we'd be happy to take a patch for this, if
someone can provide it, but we won't hold the release for it."
*** Ehwaz is now known as Ehwaz_dinner.
nightrat: only bugs or enhancements too for blocking?
jminta: in theory both, but enhancements are much less likely to block
celina63: I would think only bugs
nightrat: ok
celina63: enhancements (IMO) are "nice to have"'s
jminta: because they generally take much more time to fix, and we have a
limited number of developers
celina63: but that's in *my* QA world, y'all's could be different  :D
jminta: usually that's true
ctalbert: Do we have other questions or comments regarding the blocking flags?
celina63: also, for clarification: bug = an existing feature that isn't
working correctly, enhancement = a needed feature that doesn't exist yet
jminta: sounds about right
ctalbert: yes
lilmatt: celina63: Just know that often an issue in bugzilla
(bug, enhancement, or otherwise), is often generically referred to as a "bug"
celina63: right, I'm noticing that  :)
Taliesin: I'm a bit lost, can someone just quickly put me up to speed?
ctalbert: Taliesin: we're discussing blocking flags:
http://wiki.mozilla.org/Calendar:For_Everyone:Blocking_Flags
Taliesin: ty
ctalbert: After the meeting, we'll post the log on the wiki, so you can see
what you missed.
ctalbert: Shall we move ahead to the last item on the list?
celina63: GFI
ctalbert: So, my colleague Mike and I were talking this morning about how to
get a "big picture" sense of what's happening with a project through bugzilla
ctalbert: And we started wondering if anyone has ever tried publishing a list
of saved bugzilla searches on a wiki
ctalbert: An example of one such search is the one right there in the agenda
ctalbert: Do people think it'd be useful to make an assortment of these?
jminta: ctalbert: there are 2 searches in the 0.3 status page
*** Ehwaz_dinner is now known as Ehwaz.
ctalbert: lol
xFallenAngel: Yes I like that. What a coincidence, I Was thinking about that
this afternoon myself
Ehwaz: It would save some users the time of not having to search or think of
a good search criteroa themselves
Ehwaz: criteria
ctalbert: It would also be sure that we could have a current list that we all
refer to, like jminta did with the 0.3 status page.
celina63: agreed on all points  :) I was just trying to figure out a search
myself while we were talking
Ehwaz: Aren't we going to take away the attention too much from critical or
normal bugs to 'much wanted'/'much found' bugs?
ctalbert: I'll see if I can get a wiki page together with a few sample
searches.  It will be off the Calendar QA Home
page http://wiki.mozilla.org/Calendar:QA_Home) everyone should feel free to
suggest feedback for it once it goes live.
ctalbert: Ehwaz, I don't understand
Ehwaz: Just give an example first, maybe I'm thinking in the wrong direction
ctalbert: These would be simple searches for very high level sets of bugs. 
ssitter: ctalbert: i already use a page with saved searches for myself, I can
provide the links to you
ctalbert: ssitter, that would be great
ctalbert: I suspected you guys must already be doing this
jminta: the firefox folks actually wrote an extension that lists those in a
sidebar
Ehwaz: woow, that would be very nice to see on a regular webpage
ctalbert: cool.
ctalbert: We're getting toward the end of the meeting, does anyone have
anything to add?
ctalbert: anything else, that is.
ctalbert: General comments or questions about this stuff, or some other
topic...
Ehwaz: For the Wiki: I would propose making the Edit buttons a bit bigger, I
hardly could see them
Taliesin: did you distibuted tasks?
ctalbert: yes, celina63 will be putting the meeting log on the wiki
Ehwaz: The one here is much better (well, a bit too
big):http://wiki.mozilla.org/Calendar:QA_TestCase_Writing_Day
ctalbert: celina63, xFallenAngel, jminta will be helping to prepare the
Community Test Day wiki page
ctalbert: ehwaz: :-)
Taliesin: and on the test cases?
Ehwaz: Another one
ctalbert: The test cases from yesterday?
Taliesin: yes
ctalbert: The next thing to be done there is to move them into Litmus.
ctalbert: Due to the limited administration ifrastructure, I'm the only
person to do that. 
ctalbert: But, one thing that would help, Taliesin, would be to go through
the test case list and eliminate the duplicates, ensure all the cases are in
the correct category
ctalbert: Could you do that?
Taliesin: sure
ctalbert: Thanks
ctalbert: Okay, does anyone have anything else?
Ehwaz: Yup. The test case results that were already displayed had one horrible
layout problem: all text fields didn't have much word wrapping in the small
cells.
celina63: they looked better in Firefox than in IE  :)
celina63: Firefox added scroll bars
Ehwaz: Then sliders appeared under them, making it hard for people who wanted
to see the examples first to read
Ehwaz: yup
ctalbert: Yes, that was due to the template I created. The template makes it
easy to copy and paste the testcases into litmus.
ctalbert: But, it's horribly ugly.
Ehwaz: it is, and it could set some people back
Ehwaz: use word wrap?
ctalbert: If someone would like to expiriment with a better template, I'd love
to be able to include that in the "lessons learned"
ctalbert: Ehwaz, would you like to try that?
Ehwaz: I could, but my basic knowledge doesn't go further then HTML ;-)
celina63: that's all that's really needed, isn't it?
Ehwaz: Some <wrap> tags
ctalbert: It's actually wiki markup
Ehwaz: Don't know that
ctalbert: I'll give you a hand. There's a good help document on it available
from the edit page
Taliesin: and we can think about a script to convert it back to the one that
is easier to import into litmus
Taliesin: should be easy
ctalbert: Hey, now you're talking.
celina63: all I know is that 
 tags were working for me yesterday  :) the
bunching of the test cases was throwing me off a bit
Ehwaz: yeah, but that won't help for people with different resolutions
ctalbert: We can continue this discussion after the meeting is up. I like to
end it on time. Does anyone have any thing else? We have one minute left.
ssitter: ctalbert: How about setting up a public QA calendar that can be
subscribed to and that contains dates for upcoming qa chats, testdays, ... ?
celina63: oooo
celina63: dogfood, baby
ctalbert: Excellent Idea.
Ehwaz: Yes!
Ehwaz: So we don't always have to nag /.
ctalbert: heh
jminta: ssitter: maybe we should combine that calendar with the 0.3 release
calendar? or no?
ctalbert: I think that'd be fine
dmose: thirded
Taliesin: someone update it, than I can reload it and create more test cases :)
celina63: ok, so how 'bout a quick wrap of the action items and who's assigned
to them before we close?
ssitter: i think that should be different calendars
ctalbert: Sure, but first, who wants to set up this calendar?
ctalbert: or calendars
Taliesin: the other is not that populated
ctalbert: I'd be happy to do it, myself.
ctalbert: To wrap up, we have:
ssitter: someone who plans this events and has access to webspace  :-)
* lilmatt hides
ctalbert: sounds like me, since I do most of the planning at the moment
ctalbert: I'll need help with the access to webspace part.
ctalbert: Let's recap. 
Taliesin: what do you exactly mean with web space?
ctalbert: celina63: will put this meeting log onto our QA Chat wiki
http://wiki.mozilla.org/Calendar:QA_Chat:2006-08-10)
ctalbert: celina63, xFallenAngel, and jminta will work on the Calendar
Community Test Day wiki page http://wiki.mozilla.org/Calendar:QA_TestDays)
lilmatt: ctalbert: I can help with the webspace
ctalbert: Taliesin will help remove duplicates end grouping errors in the test
cases from the Test Case writing day
ctalbert: I will move test cases into litmus, work on PR and work with lilmatt
to get the calendar(s) set up
ssitter: Taliesin: web space like in upload ics calendar file to public http
server and allow sunbird/lightning users to subscribe to this calendar
ctalbert: I think that's everything. Did I miss anything?
Taliesin: I can help with that as well
ctalbert: cool
ctalbert: Allright, meeting adjourned, Celina63, stick around a second and
I'll offer a couple of pointers about uploading the meeting log
ctalbert: Thanks a lot everyone!