ctalbert: Alright, welcome everyone. We're going to start the calendar QA Chat now. celina63: hooray! ctalbert: That's the spirit ctalbert: The agenda is in the channel topic. ctalbert: First, who would like to put the IRC log from this meeting onto the wiki page of the meeting? celina63: I can do that ctalbert: awesome. Thanks ctalbert: First, we had an excellent calendar Test case writing day. Thanks again. ctalbert: I listed several things that were difficult about that day. Does anyone have more feedback/insight? jminta: testcase vs. bug? ctalbert: Oh right, that distinction was not well addressed. ctalbert: Good point. Another one that didn't make it into that list was to have a place for the author of the test case to include their name on it. ctalbert: Going through the wiki change long for two hours was not fun. celina63: def celina63: that would have been nice ctalbert: Any ideas on how to prevent duplicate edits? celina63: I almost deleted another tester's duplicate TC yesterday because I thought I'd accidentally entered it twice celina63: I was thinking we could each "claim" a section we're working on celina63: so for instance, yesterday I was working on the Keyboard Nav for the menu ctalbert: That's a good idea celina63: so I could have "claimed" that, and then others would know that it was covered *** Ehwaz has joined #calendar-qa. ctalbert: hello ehwaz Ehwaz: Hi ctalbert Ehwaz: I didn't forget :-) ctalbert: I'm glad. We're currently discussing feedback from the Test Case Writing Day. Do you have any ideas about things that could have done better? ctalbert: The agenda for the meeting is here: http://wiki.mozilla.org/Calendar:QA_Chat:2006-08-10 ctalbert: Those edit links caused a ton of confusion *** dmose has joined #calendar-qa. ctalbert: hi dmose dmose: Good morning dmose: Sounds like test case writing day was quite the success! ctalbert: It was indeed. celina63: I'm not sure if there's a way around the Edit links, though... isn't that a wiki standard? jminta: well, perhaps we could break some of the sections into their own pages? celina63: can they perhaps be modified, to at least describe which section they edit? jminta: then the 'edit' button at the top could be sued ctalbert: I'd have to expiriment with the formatting, and see if I could get them to look like they belong better to the section they refer to. jminta: used* celina63: I know a mouse-over shows which section they edit, but not everyone thinks of mouse-over :D dmose: Congratulations! ctalbert: jminta: that's the lawyer in you trying to come out. jminta: :) ctalbert: celina63: true *** nightrat has joined #calendar-qa. ctalbert: Hi nightrat Ehwaz: I found the examples right underneath the template confusing. I thing you should only show the Template and the instructions, not what everybody did. I first thought that I had to implement and use ALL of them. nightrat: hi all Ehwaz: hi nightrat xFallenAngel: sorry im late, i have another comment about claiming categories... xFallenAngel: well claiming something is kinda general. That might work great for future test cases, but on semi-competitive events, claiming would break things a bit.I would take a category where i think there are lots of test cases, claim it, and nobody else can use my category? *** whoopsbob has signed off IRC (Ping timeout). ctalbert: I kind of envision a claim for a time period celina63: I wouldn't claim a whole category, just a portion of the app being tested ssitter: you could create new pages like http://wiki.mozilla.org/Calendar:Test_Case_List/foobar for different sections celina63: so I would say "Ok, I've got Menu Keyboard Navigation covered" celina63: while someone else could do toolbar navigation, etc ctalbert: that's a good idea too Ehwaz: I would implement that, since it avoids the chance of 2 or more users covering the same issues * ctalbert nods ctalbert: This is great feedback. I want to give the main mozilla QA folk a wiki page of lessons learned, in case they want to try this as well. *** bobwhoops has joined #calendar-qa. xFallenAngel: or maybe a page to put those comments, so you can first post "I am doing xxx" and when you have no more ideas, then you remove that comment again so that others can continue the work if they have another idea ctalbert: I think we need to move forward now, to the Preparation for the August 22 Calendar Community Test Day xFallenAngel: ok Ehwaz: k ctalbert: xFallenAngel: good idea dmose: ctalbert: I'm sure davel and marcia would be pretty excited to see that Ehwaz: time limited claims? ctalbert: I think he means the "lessons learned" dmose: y ctalbert: If anyone has seen the wiki page for the Calendar Community Test Day, you might notice it's a little incomplete. :-) *** dmose has signed off IRC (Quit: Rheet!). Ehwaz: yeah, I mean as in another way like XFallenAngel mentioned: instead of comments, use time limited claims celina63: haha, just a bit celina63: (incomplete) ctalbert: There is a lot to be done in preparation for that day. I have to move the test cases to litmus and I'm the only one who can do that because of the way litmus currently works, and I need to help get the publicity together for that day. ctalbert: So, I was wondering if I could snag one or two people to put together a wiki page for the Calendar Community Test Day? celina63: just notify /. :) Ehwaz: lol xFallenAngel: i came here via slashdot :P Ehwaz: me 2 ctalbert: You can essentially copy the Firefox test day wiki page at: http://wiki.mozilla.org/Mozilla_QA_Community:Firefox_2.0b1_Community_Test_Day jminta: ctalbert: is this aiming to be a litmus centered day or no? ctalbert: jminta: that's right ctalbert: I'll help review the page you come up with, but it'd be nice for me to be able to concentrate on some of this other stuff ctalbert: Any takers? celina63: I can attempt it :) jminta: i can spare a few hours to help ctalbert: Sweet, thanks xFallenAngel: I'll help too if needed celina63: oh good :) ctalbert: Great. Thank ya'll. xFallenAngel: when we are finished then we should also not forget to add a note to http://wiki.mozilla.org/Mozilla_QA_Community ctalbert: xFallenAngel: good point. ctalbert: I'll see if I can handle that part. Ehwaz: not that hard, especially since the Calender Day Event looks nice and empty ctalbert: :-) ctalbert: And that brings us to jminta's blocking flags discussion * ctalbert turns the floor over to jminta jminta: :) jminta: I'm realizing that this discussion is just a subset of 'ways QA can help in Bugzilla' jminta: so I'm going to try to put a more comprehensive wiki-page up ctalbert: Ok jminta: but for now, let me encourage everyone to look through bugzilla and find bugs that might be candidates for blocking the upcoming 0.3 release jminta: these are bugs that are bad enough that we'd rather spend the time to fix, and release later, than release sooner with them jminta: also, they should be bugs that fall into one of the categories listed at http://wiki.mozilla.org/Calendar:0.3_Release_Status jminta: if you find a such a bug, please set the blocking0.3 flag (on the right side of the bug-page) to ? jminta: then the release drivers can come along and decide whether they feel the bug really should block the release jminta: this helps us make sure that nothing falls through the cracks for 0.3 * jminta hopes that made sense jminta: question/comments? Ehwaz: It did xFallenAngel: ok, so we can go ahead and mark everything we would like in 0.3 as blocking0.3, then someone else can decide if this is right? *** Taliesin has joined #calendar-qa. jminta: well, this isn't a wish-list *** dmose has joined #calendar-qa. * ctalbert waves at Taliesin Taliesin: hi Ehwaz: hi jminta: you should makr bugs that significantly impact the user's experience with the product xFallenAngel: thats the point, I will probably hesitate each time, not wanting to produce to much work for the release drivers, leading to me not setting this flag often jminta: but if you have doubts, go ahead and set it ctalbert: xFallenAngel, if you see something that seems serious, then set it. jminta: because it really only takes 5 minutes to evaluate a nommination Ehwaz: i would set it, it's better to have a bit more work then leaving the bug in the software jminta: also, please include a comment explaining why you feel it deserves to be blocking xFallenAngel: ok, I'll give it a try. I guess I will see if all my blocking0.3 are removed :P jminta: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=296202 shows a good example of how this happens jminta: sebastian gave clear reasons for why the bug should block, and we agreed xFallenAngel: ok :) Ehwaz: Now, that's a risk, since it all boils down to personal taste. For some people, one bug is going to be a big threatn while it isn't objectively. celina63: so set that to ?, and the drivers will decided to set to + or -? jminta: yes celina63: gotcha jminta: if drivers set it to -, they'll also include a comment explaining why jminta: most often it will say "we'd be happy to take a patch for this, if someone can provide it, but we won't hold the release for it." *** Ehwaz is now known as Ehwaz_dinner. nightrat: only bugs or enhancements too for blocking? jminta: in theory both, but enhancements are much less likely to block celina63: I would think only bugs nightrat: ok celina63: enhancements (IMO) are "nice to have"'s jminta: because they generally take much more time to fix, and we have a limited number of developers celina63: but that's in *my* QA world, y'all's could be different :D jminta: usually that's true ctalbert: Do we have other questions or comments regarding the blocking flags? celina63: also, for clarification: bug = an existing feature that isn't working correctly, enhancement = a needed feature that doesn't exist yet jminta: sounds about right ctalbert: yes lilmatt: celina63: Just know that often an issue in bugzilla (bug, enhancement, or otherwise), is often generically referred to as a "bug" celina63: right, I'm noticing that :) Taliesin: I'm a bit lost, can someone just quickly put me up to speed? ctalbert: Taliesin: we're discussing blocking flags: http://wiki.mozilla.org/Calendar:For_Everyone:Blocking_Flags Taliesin: ty ctalbert: After the meeting, we'll post the log on the wiki, so you can see what you missed. ctalbert: Shall we move ahead to the last item on the list? celina63: GFI ctalbert: So, my colleague Mike and I were talking this morning about how to get a "big picture" sense of what's happening with a project through bugzilla ctalbert: And we started wondering if anyone has ever tried publishing a list of saved bugzilla searches on a wiki ctalbert: An example of one such search is the one right there in the agenda ctalbert: Do people think it'd be useful to make an assortment of these? jminta: ctalbert: there are 2 searches in the 0.3 status page *** Ehwaz_dinner is now known as Ehwaz. ctalbert: lol xFallenAngel: Yes I like that. What a coincidence, I Was thinking about that this afternoon myself Ehwaz: It would save some users the time of not having to search or think of a good search criteroa themselves Ehwaz: criteria ctalbert: It would also be sure that we could have a current list that we all refer to, like jminta did with the 0.3 status page. celina63: agreed on all points :) I was just trying to figure out a search myself while we were talking Ehwaz: Aren't we going to take away the attention too much from critical or normal bugs to 'much wanted'/'much found' bugs? ctalbert: I'll see if I can get a wiki page together with a few sample searches. It will be off the Calendar QA Home page http://wiki.mozilla.org/Calendar:QA_Home) everyone should feel free to suggest feedback for it once it goes live. ctalbert: Ehwaz, I don't understand Ehwaz: Just give an example first, maybe I'm thinking in the wrong direction ctalbert: These would be simple searches for very high level sets of bugs. ssitter: ctalbert: i already use a page with saved searches for myself, I can provide the links to you ctalbert: ssitter, that would be great ctalbert: I suspected you guys must already be doing this jminta: the firefox folks actually wrote an extension that lists those in a sidebar Ehwaz: woow, that would be very nice to see on a regular webpage ctalbert: cool. ctalbert: We're getting toward the end of the meeting, does anyone have anything to add? ctalbert: anything else, that is. ctalbert: General comments or questions about this stuff, or some other topic... Ehwaz: For the Wiki: I would propose making the Edit buttons a bit bigger, I hardly could see them Taliesin: did you distibuted tasks? ctalbert: yes, celina63 will be putting the meeting log on the wiki Ehwaz: The one here is much better (well, a bit too big):http://wiki.mozilla.org/Calendar:QA_TestCase_Writing_Day ctalbert: celina63, xFallenAngel, jminta will be helping to prepare the Community Test Day wiki page ctalbert: ehwaz: :-) Taliesin: and on the test cases? Ehwaz: Another one ctalbert: The test cases from yesterday? Taliesin: yes ctalbert: The next thing to be done there is to move them into Litmus. ctalbert: Due to the limited administration ifrastructure, I'm the only person to do that. ctalbert: But, one thing that would help, Taliesin, would be to go through the test case list and eliminate the duplicates, ensure all the cases are in the correct category ctalbert: Could you do that? Taliesin: sure ctalbert: Thanks ctalbert: Okay, does anyone have anything else? Ehwaz: Yup. The test case results that were already displayed had one horrible layout problem: all text fields didn't have much word wrapping in the small cells. celina63: they looked better in Firefox than in IE :) celina63: Firefox added scroll bars Ehwaz: Then sliders appeared under them, making it hard for people who wanted to see the examples first to read Ehwaz: yup ctalbert: Yes, that was due to the template I created. The template makes it easy to copy and paste the testcases into litmus. ctalbert: But, it's horribly ugly. Ehwaz: it is, and it could set some people back Ehwaz: use word wrap? ctalbert: If someone would like to expiriment with a better template, I'd love to be able to include that in the "lessons learned" ctalbert: Ehwaz, would you like to try that? Ehwaz: I could, but my basic knowledge doesn't go further then HTML ;-) celina63: that's all that's really needed, isn't it? Ehwaz: Some <wrap> tags ctalbert: It's actually wiki markup Ehwaz: Don't know that ctalbert: I'll give you a hand. There's a good help document on it available from the edit page Taliesin: and we can think about a script to convert it back to the one that is easier to import into litmus Taliesin: should be easy ctalbert: Hey, now you're talking. celina63: all I know is that
tags were working for me yesterday :) the bunching of the test cases was throwing me off a bit Ehwaz: yeah, but that won't help for people with different resolutions ctalbert: We can continue this discussion after the meeting is up. I like to end it on time. Does anyone have any thing else? We have one minute left. ssitter: ctalbert: How about setting up a public QA calendar that can be subscribed to and that contains dates for upcoming qa chats, testdays, ... ? celina63: oooo celina63: dogfood, baby ctalbert: Excellent Idea. Ehwaz: Yes! Ehwaz: So we don't always have to nag /. ctalbert: heh jminta: ssitter: maybe we should combine that calendar with the 0.3 release calendar? or no? ctalbert: I think that'd be fine dmose: thirded Taliesin: someone update it, than I can reload it and create more test cases :) celina63: ok, so how 'bout a quick wrap of the action items and who's assigned to them before we close? ssitter: i think that should be different calendars ctalbert: Sure, but first, who wants to set up this calendar? ctalbert: or calendars Taliesin: the other is not that populated ctalbert: I'd be happy to do it, myself. ctalbert: To wrap up, we have: ssitter: someone who plans this events and has access to webspace :-) * lilmatt hides ctalbert: sounds like me, since I do most of the planning at the moment ctalbert: I'll need help with the access to webspace part. ctalbert: Let's recap. Taliesin: what do you exactly mean with web space? ctalbert: celina63: will put this meeting log onto our QA Chat wiki http://wiki.mozilla.org/Calendar:QA_Chat:2006-08-10) ctalbert: celina63, xFallenAngel, and jminta will work on the Calendar Community Test Day wiki page http://wiki.mozilla.org/Calendar:QA_TestDays) lilmatt: ctalbert: I can help with the webspace ctalbert: Taliesin will help remove duplicates end grouping errors in the test cases from the Test Case writing day ctalbert: I will move test cases into litmus, work on PR and work with lilmatt to get the calendar(s) set up ssitter: Taliesin: web space like in upload ics calendar file to public http server and allow sunbird/lightning users to subscribe to this calendar ctalbert: I think that's everything. Did I miss anything? Taliesin: I can help with that as well ctalbert: cool ctalbert: Allright, meeting adjourned, Celina63, stick around a second and I'll offer a couple of pointers about uploading the meeting log ctalbert: Thanks a lot everyone!