Webmaker/Campus Party talk

Speaker 1: I'm really proud to announce our next speaker, the Executive Director of the Mozilla Foundation, makers of Firefox. Mark Surman. It's great to have you here Mark: Thank you very much. Can you guys hear me? It's kind of weird in here, the audio. Tell me up or down. Down or up? Up? Okay. Down? Oh, like that? Okay. Thanks for having me here. There is nothing as exciting as being in a place like this where I feel like I'm with people who have common cause. We have the same cause that I have and the Mozilla has. That's what I want to talk about today. I want to talk about the cause that we all have as Mozilla here at Campus Party, which is wrapped up inside of things like free software, like the web, but I think it's bigger. I want to talk about that and I want to talk actually about some strategies for our cause to win over the really, really long term. Oh, do I have a clicker? No. Awesome. I'm going to be walking back and forth a lot more than I thought. I was thinking about causes in general. I've been thinking about a lot over the last year. One time that kind of really surprising light bolt came on for me is I was here. I was visiting the Royal Society in London. For people who don't know, the Royal Society is sort of a champion of science. It's been around a long, long time. It has its fellows and all these kind of things. I was there talking to them about their computer science curriculum recommendations, getting computer science into the British Schools. That was fun. That is something that I care a lot about. The other thing that kind of came up for me while I was there is, this is a group of people and they surprise me. Think about this is an old, stodgy institution that's been around for hundreds of years. This was a group of people who are incredibly idealistic about their cause. In fact, you don't think about science very much as a cause. This is their motto, which is over their door or in their front of hallway and it says, "Take no one's word for it." Three-hundred fifty years ago, when they kicked off, that was a radical idea, the idea that you ask questions, confirm things for yourself with evidence. That wasn't the prevailing ideology. The people who I met with, including very senior people like The VP of research, still I felt from them an incredible amount of idealism around that concept of science, around asking curiously, looking for evidence. We don't think of that today because that particular cause has been so successful. It's deeply embedded into our society, but still, our people who wake up every day, idealistically championing that cause. As I was there, I thought what would it take for the things that we are excited about, passionate about here today to still be something that people wake up every day and are excited about 352 years from now, which is how long the Royal Society has been around. What if the things that we care about still mattered to people…they were still excited. If our cause was so successful that, 350 years from now, people still cared about it as passionately as we do. I think that's a question worth asking and I think it's a thing that we can succeed with. That's why I want to talk about it today and I want to talk about what that cause is, some reflections that I've done on it and how we might describe it to the world. I want to talk about strategies that we can use for our cause to win, both in the short term and the long term. I want to talk about that long game idea and the kinds of things I think we need to do and the arc that we need to look at if we want to succeed at the same level as ideas like science. I think openness in the Internet and the web can succeed and shape humanity for that long and that deeply. Let me talk about the cause first. One of the great things about working at Mozilla is…I showed up about three years ago and because I have to do all kinds of administrative stuff and legal stuff, to go back and read things that are…sound very boring like our corporate charter and corporation documents. In those corporation documents, it says, "Mozilla exists to guard he open nature of the Internet." It's awesome to work for an organization where like, "That's what we're in business to do." I think we've been fairly successful. I'll talk about that a little bit later in the slides. One thing we haven't been successful at is describing that idea of guarding the open nature of the Internet to consumers, to the world, to everybody on the web. Most people don't give a shit. They use the web. They love the web. One of the things I have a thing about is how do you describe that case better. I thought back to the first cause that I got involved in. This is me in my high school yearbook picture which actually got banned from the high school year book, because I'm smoking in that picture. As you may be able to tell from the picture, the cause that I first fell in love with was punk rock. That was a pretty understandable cause, the idea of picking up a guitar, making photocopy or…the DIY ethic of punk rock is something to touch hundreds of millions of people. Why is that? What was that about? How does that relate to what we're doing? Well, one of the interesting things about it is that punk rock, like the Internet, was a cause where the culture and the technology actually fed each other. I don't know if people have ever touched or seen one of these things in the slide, but that's a four-track cassette recorder that let you…I know this sounds very silly in the age of garage band, but like mix four tracks of music together. What was crazy about that is this was…Hi, Peter. This was a piece of technology that replaced or let you do what you were only at the time able to do with million-dollar studios. You could make a record or you could make a cassette if you got pressed into a record. The technology was tremendously democratizing, but that also fell…it fed the cause, fed the culture of DIY of punk rock. Another critical technology at that time, of course, is the photocopier, and that was my particular weapon of choice. I didn't know even how to play a single power chord so I was not a musician at the time, but I was one of this kind of photocopy poster art kids. Again, like the fact that you could very cheaply do what, up to that point, was hard and expensive to do, print things, fed this DIY culture, this cause, kind of punk visual art. It struck me as I was thinking about this. That's not that different than our cause and some of the things that are powerful about the Web. I was, in doing photocopy art, literally cutting and pasting, taking glue, taking scissors and remixing images into other art. Remix was at the center of that. That was something, as I was reflecting on, which kind of got me to what's the essence, like what turned me on about that and why does that feel so much like the Internet. The essence, I think, in punk rock is very much at the core of our cause in free software and the Internet is creativity and freedom. Punk rock was about the fact that we all have an impulse to say something. We all have a voice inside of us that we want to get out. Here, in the era of broadcast television and big glitzy stadium rock, is a movement that's saying we all can say something whether we're making a poster or whether we're making a record or just singing along in a club. The idea of unleashing with freedom, freedom of technology, freedom to express yourself, all of that creativity, I think is a very powerful idea. I think it's what drew me, drew millions of people to punk rock. I think it's what powerful about the Internet. How many people…you probably can't see this, but there's this little device here that says 2400 on it. How many people recognize what that is? Right? This is when you're with young people, right, like four percent of the audience. That is a modem. What that is, is a thing you plug in to a landline and it makes that sound like a power chord in punk rock. You've got…that was how we all first got on the web, those of us who saw those archaic web browsers like Mosaic and Net Scape. Not only does that sound of a modem handshake sound like punk rock, but there's a lot of that same ethic that was there of DIY as we all got on the Internet, as we figured out how to make that modem work which was a pain in the ass, as we made our first web pages. It was the very same kind of feeling and really the same kind of thrill. What that feeling and that thrill, what that ethic of DIY on the Internet created is a really beautiful thing, right, is this network that now spans two billion people and which more than half of our own social networks expressing themselves, posting contents, posting photos every day. We live in a world that's very different than the one in which punk rock was born in terms of people's access to creativity and freedom. Why I bring that up is to point at, to understand what our cause is. I think creativity and freedom is a good thing to think about at the core of it. It's also really important to understand that we're at a key juncture. We're at a key juncture because there are two different competing visions of the Internet right now, battling it out to see who wins. One of those visions of the Internet is creativity and freedom. It's open standards. It's free software. It's the idea that we all can use this network for anything we want without asking anybody's permission. There's also a visitor of the Internet that is very much about prescription and control. We might not call it the Internet. We might call it the great fire wall of China. You might call it ACTA, or you might call it the Apple App store, but that is a different set of ideas about what the Internet should be. The people behind those ideas believe they're right. They believe the Internet should be about prescription and control, about asking permission, about only doing things in prescribed ways. That vision of the Internet might win, right? That's why our cause is so important. It's not just about 352 years from now. It's actually about now, right? We may lose the thing we've built in the last 20 years if we don't describe and build out further that vision of the Internet which is founded on the creativity and freedom. Of course, that's the vision that I want to have win, but we're going to figure out how we have it win. It's worth just saying one last thing on this question of this vision and cause which is the stakes for all of us are huge, right? We have bet so much on the Internet. Our lives happen on the Internet. We fall in love on the Internet. We're putting our governments on the Internet. We're putting our businesses on the Internet. Which vision of the Internet wins, actually, has a lot to do with which vision of society wins. To some degree, where the Internet goes, humanity is going to go. What we believe, in a world of creativity and freedom, we need that vision of the Internet to win whether we care about technology or not. That's what we need to communicate to the world is that importance of our cause. How are we going to do that? I think we already do…we're already making some progress, but we got a lot, lot of work to do. I think about the strategy we need as having three things. The first is policy, which is the first thing that comes to mind for most people when you think about having a cause and it is important. We saw that with ACTA. We saw that in the US with SOPA, you know. Policy can wreck, break the Internet. Also, we can imagine policy that can nurture and protect the Internet, but I actually don't think that's the most important piece. The other piece that Mozilla has always been strong at is product. A lot of what the Internet is, we have shaped just by building things that build in the values of creativity and freedom. A lot of what's going to wreck the Internet is actually product that builds in those values of prescription and control. That's another key piece and I'll talk more about that later. The third piece of the strategy that I think we need — and I'm going to talk about this in more detail because I think it's a piece that almost always gets missed although not necessarily here at Campus Party— is literacy. It's the idea that we need the two billion people who are on the Internet, we need the seven billion people on this planet who are quickly, through their phones, is going to be getting on the Internet, to understand how the web works, and how they can configure it and shape it for their own needs. That is the route of creativity and freedom; the route to creativity and freedom. The good news is lots of people, people here at Campus Party, but also people like the conservative Minister of Culture in the U.K. here, Ed Vaizey, are agreeing with me that literacy about how the web works is important. You probably can’t read this, but what Ed is saying here in a quote in The Guardian about six months ago is even a basic understanding of computer coding will help you understand the structure of your digital life. You see on this shipping cards a lot of the same kind of ideas that understanding how to code is a way to tap into this creativity and freedom. I actually think that is the third pillar we need in this strategy if we want our vision of the Internet to win. The problem is, strangely, I still get a lot of "What the fuck?" when you say, well, literacy — why is Mozilla or why are we, as a society, need to care about web literacy, about code literacy. I personally think it's as important as reading, writing and math, but we actually need to make that case. I take a little bit of time talking about that case. The reason I think and you…I'll read this out because you might not be able to see it. The reason I think it's important is the world that the web has created, the world of the World Wide Web, is made up of Lego. We may understand that here, but it’s not something that most people who are on the Web understand. I think that's really important. You might ask, what do I mean by the world is made of Lego. Well, I often use my son, Ethan, who happens to be right there in the audience to explain how that…what that concept is and why I care about that. This is Ethan and you can come and talk to him afterwards. He will attest the fact that he loves to make things with Lego. We got a whole third floor of our house filled with those things. Ethan also loves the web. He's been sitting over there all day when we're trying to teach him how to do HTML, just sitting on the web. He loves the web in a way that I think is natural and real and good and common amongst most of those two billion people on the Internet. Often, I find out about things on the Internet through Ethan and my other son, Tristan. I don't know if people recognize this video. [Music Playing] Crank it up. That's got to be much louder. Otherwise, I'm going to sing. How many people have seen this video before? Right. For the few of you who haven't, this is of course Rebecca Black. We're going to listen to her lyrics. "Everybody's rushing," that's an important line. The thing about the stuff Ethan likes on the Internet is, if you're looking Rebecca Black, there's a kind of a way it's Internet-y. It certainly was very viral, which is actually not different than no matter how old you are like other pop music that, when I was 10, I would have heard on AM radio. In some ways, well, it's awesome that the Internet has replaced television and radio. It's not that different, but what is different is the other stuff that Ethan points out. Are we really up on the volume now? Because we need to be able to hear this. Here's something else that Ethan just showed me the other day. This is Brock's Dub and Brock comes a very quickly with these voice overs. I asked Ethan like, which of these he likes better. Of course, Brock's Dub is the one that he liked better than the one he showed to me. What's amazing is, for hundreds of millions of people, especially the generation of people who are just getting on the Internet now, that is mainstream media. Brock's Dub is mainstream media and that is tremendously different than the world that I grew up in, in the world of television and it is what the Internet has brought us. It is maybe corny and crappy and just like Cats, but it's also wonderful and it's very much about and built on creativity and freedom. Another one that my other son showed me that is…makes me really happy in terms of the spirit of the internet is Chad Vader. [Music Playing] Let's go, Chad. Just like with Brock's Dub, Chad's got high production value remixes of Rebecca Black out there right away. God, I love Chad Vader. This is…look…there, he doesn't have a back seat. The world that Ethan lives in, the mainstream media world that Ethan lives in, is a mash-up. He lives in the world where the language of communication is remixed and remix is mainstream media. Creativity and freedom are mainstream media. That's a very different world. It's a world I like and it's important to know and this is why literacy to me is so important is that that world is a mash-up by design, right? By design, we can shape how the world works and have with the Internet. If you think about the Internet being a mash-up by design, I actually think Tim Berners-Lee — you can ask him tomorrow — wanted the web to work like Lego. He certainly designed it that way. He designed and others designed a world that allowed us to replace television with Chad Vader, which I'm very happy about. More important, he designed that world with Lego that you can go inside and see. That's the source code of that page, right? I can go in and see the lines on the Lego. It may look like a beautiful house, but I know I can take it apart. I know I can see how a piece of it works. I know that I can actually shape it and do things with it. I can understand it. I can reuse it. That is designed into the web and that is unlike any other form of human communication on a mass scale that we have ever had. It has shaped the world we live in, and I hope it continues to for a very long time. That's why I actually care about web literacy. I want Ethan to know that the web is built of Lego and, more importantly, I want Ethan and hundreds of millions of other young people to know how that Lego works. I'd asked one of the most important and most political things we can do for our cause. I do think it is the foundation on which we build the world of creativity of freedom and if we don't take web literacy seriously, and if we also don't look at this other aspects of the strategy, look at literacy, look at product, look at policy, we end up back in the world of prescription and control that we came from and that we potentially are moving back into. The last thing I want to talk about is…let's say we win at this strategy in the short run. The good news is we're already winning, right? Like Chad Vader is victory. How do we actually keep winning, win bigger, and last? Product is a part of that. Literacy is a part of that. Policy is a part of that. How do we make those things last? I looked a lot at other movements. You actually have to look at these things on a really long arc to see how you bake your values, bake your ideas into society, in ways that last for centuries. One thing to look at it in terms of embedding these values is the environmental movement. In addition to being punk rock, being my first cause, it's unsurprising that the peace movement, environmental movement went alongside the punk rock, was also something that I was involved in as a teenager. I live in a little town of 10,000 where I organized the only peace and environmental group with one union guy and one wife of a minister. It's worth asking, if you think about the environmental movement, when did it actually start? They made people think of it, maybe in the '60s or sometime around then. Really, if you look at the history of that and the game and the arc that the environmental movement has played to get to this point where it’s still struggling to survive or to be successful, but it is moving into the mainstream. It really, at least in the North American, starts…this is the inside cover of Thoreau's Walden Pond. It starts in like the late…not even quite the late…mid to late 19th century when it becomes a conversation about the relationship between nature and humanity, nature and cities, cities and the countryside. A lot of the thinking begins then. This is I think probably around 1909, 1910. This guy…never remembered his name, but this dude here with the big long beard is the founder of…Nero(ph), I think is his name, the founder of the Sierra Club. It takes 30, 40 years for Thoreau, sitting alone in a cabin, turned into a bunch of people gathered and hiking. What's interesting about that is you don't think of a bunch of people going hiking as…or camping out at Campus Party as the environmental movement. Really, where it starts in terms of organizing and Sierra Club, of course, is a very political organization now in the U.S. Where it starts is people enjoying nature, enjoying the environment, just as people who are watching Chad Vader are…or making Chad Vader are enjoying the Internet. The beginning of that…actually, just like people at Campus Party here. The beginning of the environmental movement is really environmental enthusiasts, right? It's not people out there protesting. It's people who love this thing and just want to gather to be enthusiastic about it, much like people are here at Campus Party. It really takes another 40 to 50 years before they start to look at the environmental movement as a political movement. It's Rachel Carson's Silent Spring. It's all kinds of things that happened in the '60s, '70s and '80s but it's still going on now. There's no question that this is a powerful and important political movement at that arc in its history. People keep investing in it, keep reinventing it, keep growing it. It's really only in the last 10 or 15 years that you start see those ideas, a hundred years later, more than a hundred years after Thoreau, becoming a part of the mainstream and how we make economic decisions, becoming a part of the mainstream and how we make policy decisions. We certainly haven't won yet, but along that arc, it is going from the enthusiast to the activist to the market and to the mainstream that happens over a long period of time. I'm not saying that we actually need to wait 120 years to build, openness and creativity and freedom into our society and into the Web. We're already doing that, but I think we have to look at investing long arcs that are that long. It's one of the reasons that literacy is as important as product. I think that's what we need if we want creativity and freedom to be a part of our world and the Internet's value to be…still how we communicate 352 years from now. A lot of people though are impatient. They don't want to wait 352 years. I am one of those people. What do we do now? I'm just going to go through a little bit more on what Mozilla is doing now along with the three pieces of strategy. I think all those three…all the things that we're doing tied to everything that's going on here, everything in the free software movement, everything in the free culture movement. It is a lot that we all need to be doing on these three strategies now. From our side, we've started to move into that policy piece with ACTA and more with SOPA in the U.S. We've started to say, this is actually really important. We need to make sure that legislators don't break the Internet. It probably actually has something to do with legislators understanding the Internet. We'll get there eventually, maybe when Ethan becomes prime minister. One of the first things that Mozilla did and was a big step for us is we participated in the SOPA blackout in the U.S. against the U.S. laws that we're going to break the DNS system. You'll see us doing more and more in that area. Of course, the biggest place that Mozilla has played traditionally and you'll see it continue to happen in the future is in the product side of building creativity and freedom into the web. Firefox is the example you know, and you may know this, but certainly, the thing we…most people don't think of when they think about Firefox is…it wasn't just a victory for our piece of free software that happens to be on quarter of the web…quarter of the desktops in the world. It really was a victory for the web, right? Web standards, HTML, CSS, Java Script, the Lego that we build the Internet on, were dying. Microsoft was killing them in 2003 when Firefox comes out. The quarter of a billion people who use Firefox really are just people who are…well, they're using a browser they love, contributing to making sure that that Lego stays alive. That's what Firefox is for. That's how we use products. What we want to do next is make sure that the next two billion people who get on to the Internet using mobile phones have the same creativity and freedom that all of us have had when we got on the Internet with our desktops, so we're building called Boot to Gecko, which is bringing the web into the world of mobile, where the mobile operating system where any URL is an app. It brings us back to the level playing field to the world that the web has built. That's a way in which Mozilla is contributing to the product part of that strategy. We also, as of January, decided to take a big leap forward on this question of literacy. You can actually go over to workshop one…afterwards if you want to check out some of what we're building on that front. There's some awesome stuff over there being demoed. In January, we decided to build and in June we launched something called Mozilla Web Maker, which is us putting $10 million a year into building products and building programs and building a community that's going to create a generation of web makers. It's going to help Ethan understand how that Lego works and how to shape the world that he lives in and we all live in. The first things we've done as a part of that are put a set of tools that you can use to play with the web, to create things on the web, but also that people can use to learn about how that Lego works. One of them is called Thimble, which just looks like an HTML code editor, but actually has a lot of cool content inside of it that people learn quickly about how HTML works. Another is called Popcorn, which basically…I like to call it an iMovie for APIs, but it's a video editor for the web. It also teaches you a lot about how the web works. On top of those tools, we've started to build a global community of learners, makers and instructors. In June, we kicked off something called Summer Code Party, which is…I think we've had 600 of these events where people gather around, using tools like that, teach each other how the web works. It's what we're doing over there and it happened in 77 countries so far. That's the third thing that Mozilla's doing to contribute to the strategy. We're moving into some aspects of policy. We're continuing to push some products with things like Boot to Gecko. We're really moving into literacy with Mozilla Web Maker. What I obviously want to see is all of us moving in those three areas on policy, product and literacy. There are also these questions, "What could you do right right now?" If you've got your laptop open, this is a bit of a side thing, but I think it's really important in terms of the kind of things we should be doing. One thing you can do right right now is go to FreeBassel.org and fill in the petition or the letter there. Bassel Khartabil his last name, is a Syrian Mozilla contributor, as you can see from his t-shirt, also a Creative Commons person, very involved as a coder, very involved as an activist for free culture, and very involved in policy, involved in the three fronts I talked about and very much a teacher of other people. Right now, the Syrian government has him in jail because he's somebody who has the skills and has those literacies. He's not a political person in the sense of why you should be in jail in Syria while or the struggle that's going on there. He's a communicator. He's a member of our cause. One thing you could do now is go and fill that in because I think Bassel actually represents what all of us are here for. He's just a really beautiful human being. Just one final thought to wrap and then I'm happy to take questions on anything related to Mozilla, is if we want to imagine this long game, if we want to imagine our cause winning, I think we really need to be able to communicate to people. We need to roll up this idea of creativity and freedom. We need to be able to say this is how the web was designed. You can't read it at all, but this is a quote from Tim Berners Lee. What he says is, "The web evolved into a powerful and ubiquitous tool because it was built on egalitarian principles." He did actually build the web into Lego by design. We need to be able to roll that up. We need…he's saying we need something where everyone will remember that. In the same way, the royal society has a simple saying that you want to be able to live in a world where you ask questions and gather evidence. We want to say, "We want to live in a world built on creativity and freedom." I think if we can do that, I think if we can continue to follow through on the kind of strategies that we're all here doing and then I talked about, we can have a world that's based on the values on the things that we're excited about 352 years from. I think that's actually achievable and what we need to be working on. Thank you very much. I'm happy to take questions. You want to take this mike? There's a guy in a cape behind you, just to distract you while you're thinking of your questions. Hey, guy in a cape. He's Flat Man. Clap for Flat Man. Flat Man what are you doing? Male: Promoting the flat rates. Free Internet for everybody. Mark: Awesome. Free Internet for everybody. Anyway, there's a guy in a cape. We've got to stop for the guy in a cape. Questions? About anything related to Mozilla, although I'm happy to talk about my talk. Male: There's a man with a question. Male: I understand that Mozilla is opening an office in Berlin. Mark: That is true. Male: Do you know is working there or who I could talk to? Mark: All those people right there. Put up your hand if you're working in the Mozilla Berlin office. Male: All right. I'll talk to them. Maybe you later on because I play in a punk rock band and… Mark: Awesome. I would love to about it or hear it. Male: Maybe we'll do some spirit there. Mark: We're really, really happy to be here in Berlin. I think everybody here knows it is a place that embodies that spirit of creativity and freedom, where a lot of cool stuff is happening, so that's why we're here. Male: Also, I was wondering about the Firefox OS. How's that coming along? I was looking at some sources the other day, but do you know any timetable or anything? Mark: There are people back there who I think are better to talk about it than me, but certainly it is progressing incredibly fast. I think that we're at an interesting spot, right? If you sat back in 2002 or early 2003, you really saw the web fragmenting and it was going to be a lot of effort to the point where you kind of got things back. I think the early version of Firefox OS are…you're going to see them early next year within the marketplace, but it's going to be a long time. It's going to be a number of years before we actually shift the marketplace back. I think you can talk to Christian, the man with the red hair behind you even though he said not to…both Boot to Gecko. Male: All right. Thank you. I will. Mark: Oh, wait, he's giving a talk at 2:00 in this next stage and he's going to talk about that. Other questions? Male: I have one. Mark: It looks like we're question-less. If you're…oh, is there one over there? No? Okay. Oh, right there. Female: Hello. I have a question about Open Badges project. Open Badges. Mark: What would you like to know about Open Badges? Female: I represent Udacity, so it's kind of free education moment. We were looking into this project earlier, but it seemed very green. What's the progress on it… Mark: Sure. Female: And the future? Mark: Okay. I can tell that…actually, you reminded me that when you said that about Badges, have these hand-made buttons. If you ask a question, you get a badge. You're asking about Open Badges. Open Badges is a part of what we're doing, Mozilla Web Maker. It's basically trying to create an open source, an open standards identity systems for small educational credentials, the idea that you would earn a badge to say that you learned something. The reasoning behind that, the vision behind that is, on the Internet, we're all learning everywhere, but you could be learning at a Mozilla Summer Code Party event. You could be learning at Peer 2 Peer University. You can be learning as a part of this free education movement. You want to be able to collect what you've learned to be able to show it from all of those places. The idea of Open Badges is to create a standard that anyone can issue educational credentials on any site and you can collect them all for yourself and pull them together and take them wherever you want, to Facebook, to your blog, to LinkedIn. Where we're at in terms of progress, that is the Open Badges spec and the Badge Backpack out…are out there. There's a metadata specification and there's also a piece of software that allows you to collect and carry your badges around, called the Badge Backpack. Those are out there in beta. You can go and get them. You can use them. You can play with them. Those will ship as the final version by the beginning of next year, in the first quarter of next year. Mozilla also is developing its own badges as a part of the Web Maker program around HTML, CSS, Java Script as well as kind of creativity skills related to the web. You'll see the first of those come by the end of this year. I'm happy to talk to you. If you have more detailed questions, I'm here. There's also a bunch of other people who are on the Mozilla learning team, the Web Maker team at that booth. You can also add some more detailed questions. Male: I was also wondering if you could say something maybe that the mobile, post-PC strategy of Mozilla besides Gecko OS. I mean you have some problems of getting on iOS and would have the same problems on Windows Phone and Windows 8 even. Mark: Is there a specific question about those problems or do you just want to know about our…let me give you the big strategy and then Christian's the guy to talk to about probably the more detailed technical things. At a broad level, what we're doing with Boot to Gecko is about getting back to the point where any URL is an app, right? That's where we are now. It doesn't matter whether I'm on Firefox or Chrome or Internet Explorer, I think they call it. It's not very relevant anymore. I can go and use Facebook or go use Gmail. It's very different than the PC world that we lived in the '80s and early '90s where if I was on a Mac and you're on a PC, we couldn't talk to each other. We want that to be the world, but phone are in as well, and the web can do that. Part of that strategy is the Boot to Gecko platform. Another is an app specification for HTML 5 app so that you can have apps that will work across any platform. We're doing a lot of work on web APIs that allow all the components inside the device to talk to the web and pushing that forward. There's another piece around identity, which probably we will also tie to commerce around having open standards for log in and identity that work across all your devices. There are three pillars of mobile, are the operating system, the apps specification and an app marketplace, and an identity system. Male: There won't be a Firefox browser that was without Gecko engine, maybe with… Mark: There won't be a Firefox phone without a Gecko engine? Is that the question? Male: No, there won't be a Firefox browser with maybe Rap Kit(ph) or… Mark: Axel(ph) says no. Yes. I don't think that's the point. It was what I was going to say, because the idea is we're trying to build apps that will run on any rendering engine on any phone or any device. Yes, we'll still use web…we'll still use Gecko as our core rendering technology, but the idea is that the web should work across any platform. Male: What success have you had in collaborating with other companies that have a large presence on the web in terms of promoting creativity and freedom? Mark: The first success, I think, we have is the web or Firefox. It has been a platform for other people to build things on. This current era and the three strategies I talked about…we're really looking for the different organizations and different partners to work with. If you just look at this Mozilla Web Maker thing, we're talking to or we're looking at how we connect things like Campus Party or work with companies like O2 that care about this stuff. We're also working with a lot of non-profits and foundations that are really active in this base like McArthur Foundation in the U.S. We're still in the process of figuring out how do we strategically do these partnerships. If you have ideas of who we can work with, happy to hear. I'm supposed to be giving out badges, I forgot, so I'll give you one. Male: Hi, I want to ask you how are you progressing with the HTML 5 in YouTube kind of conflict, because you don't want to support any of the proprietary video formats obviously. Are you collaborating with Google on this or… Mark: Christian is probably a better person to ask about that. It's talk. It's his job as HTML 5 evangelist. Obviously, I don't know how much in detail you follow it. We made some changes around codecs that are going to make that easier but a lot of that falls on Google and YouTube to move ahead with. Here's your button. Male: Hi. What do you think about Chrome's native client? What do you think about Chrome's native client? Mark: Chrome's native client, so the question is, "What do you think about Chrome's native client?" We've looked a lot at it in terms of game stuff. Obviously, there's a bunch of other places that matter. Obviously, we would rather see that not be the way things play out. We would rather see that for the kinds of things that people are doing with native client that HTML 5 actually becomes the way that people do things like make games. There's a bunch of initiatives that we'll launch soon. It will show what that could look like especially in gaming. Male: Thank you. I wanted to ask what's going to happen with HTML 5 after blogs reported the fragmentation between the WHATWG and W3C. Mark: I heard half of those words. Male: Oh, sorry. We started reading in blogs that there was a fragmentation happening about WHATWG and W3C respecting HTML 5. Mark: Right. Christian's again…because he's a HTML 5 expert, a better person to talk to in detail about that stuff and go listen to his talk. I think one of the things that is different now than at the beginning of the web is that standard setting is in process of negotiation in the marketplace and in real-time. I think, broadly, what you're going to see is just there is a lot of back-and-forth before things settle. I think you're just seeing. That's just one example of that, right? Male: Should we expect things to settle soon? Mark: I think you should expect pieces of it to settle soon and other pieces, new pieces, to kind of go into flux. I think that's the nature of the speed at which the web evolves and standard setting trying to interplay with each other. Male: There are some important APIs like the storage ones, which are changing constantly. I mean they're breaking web apps. They're trying to use HTML 5. Mark: Yes. It's the balance that people are trying to strike and trying to figure out. I mean I think everybody wants this stuff to be stable, but people have different visions and they're being negotiated in real-time. Male: Thank you. Mark: All right. Well, thank you very much. If you're interested in what Mozilla is doing on web-making over there, we're going to keep that workshop one going for…into the lunch break, so go and check it out. Thanks very much.