View source for Paladin/Misc/Android Audio Notes

Here are some links from an IRC conversation about Android audio, and log of much of the conversation itself.

* http://mindtherobot.com/blog/555/android-audio-problems-hidden-limitations-and-opensl-es/
* http://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=3434
* http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/printview.php?t=331703&start=0
* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfiYUL2exT8#t=40m32s

'''Log from channel # starting 2011-11-15 12:04:26 -0800'''

Link to a time in the conversation by visiting a URL like {{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}}}#12:00
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|  || style="color: #555;" | » automata joined the chat room. || id="12:20" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 12:20
  
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|  || style="color: #555;" | » anant left the chat room. || id="16:49" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 16:49
  
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|  || style="color: #555;" | » sicking left the chat room. || id="16:55" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 16:55
  
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || derf: I'll probably be on anyways, but is there anything you need from me at the codec meeting? || id="17:05" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:05
  
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | dmose || jesup: is now a good time to chat about audio stuff? || id="17:11" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:11
  
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || dmose: not horrible; the 3-year-old is watching videos on the tablet. Dangerous things, those tablets || id="17:13" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:13
  
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | dmose || chuckles || id="17:14" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:14
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | dmose || we're trying to figure out how soon to give ours access to such things || id="17:14" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:14
  
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || Much easier for her to browse youtube. than a computer with a mouse. And with youtubve you have to watch || id="17:14" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:14
  
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | dmose || true || id="17:14" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:14
  
|-
| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || Good idea for a website: curated videos from youtube for kids || id="17:15" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:15
|-
| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || the 11-month-old is "helping" unload the dishwasher || id="17:16" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:16
|-
| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || Someone is making a ruggedized 7" (?) android tablet preloaded with stuff for kids - not out yet I think || id="17:16" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:16
|-
| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || Flash on sesamestreet.org doesn't always work well with touch.... || id="17:17" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:17
|-
| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || so, audio? || id="17:17" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:17
  
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | dmose || good point on the sesamestreet || id="17:18" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:18
|-
| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | dmose || on the upside, nice to see adobe acknowledging that flash is on its way out || id="17:18" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:18
|-
| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | dmose || yeah, so you had mentioned last week after roc had filled me in on the current state of his audio work || id="17:19" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:19
  
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || Yeah, in around 5 years, or more || id="17:19" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:19
  
|-
| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | dmose || that you wanted to chat more || id="17:19" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:19
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | dmose || so i was just responding to that || id="17:19" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:19
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | dmose || i assumed/hoped you had some wisdom to impart :-) || id="17:20" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:20
  
|-
| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || Right. I wanted to touch base with you on webrtc audio and how it might interact with some of the things you're doing || id="17:20" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:20
  
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | dmose || ok || id="17:20" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:20
  
|-
| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || We talked a little about it at AllHands || id="17:20" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:20
  
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | dmose || yeah || id="17:20" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:20
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | dmose || so, in general, i think the first person shooter use case is a pretty obvious one || id="17:20" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:20
  
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || To lay the groundwork, what's the problem space you're dealing with/want to address? || id="17:21" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:21
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || (I think I know, but better to make sure) || id="17:21" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:21
  
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | dmose || primarily 3d gaming on the web || id="17:21" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:21
|-
| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | dmose || https://wiki.mozilla.org/Paladin may be helpful || id="17:21" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:21
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | dmose || and if you follow the (more…) link, that may be helpful too || id="17:22" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:22
  
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || ok. (I'd looked a little before) || id="17:23" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:23
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || So for audio, you have the typical in-game audio: background, music, and event-driven audio || id="17:24" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:24
  
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | dmose || that sounds right to me || id="17:24" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:24
  
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || And then possibly streaming or inter-player audio || id="17:24" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:24
  
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | dmose || yeah || id="17:24" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:24
  
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || I assume there's an assumption of multi-player, at least as an option || id="17:24" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:24
  
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | dmose || eventually, yes || id="17:25" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:25
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | dmose || that's not something we're thinking about much right now || id="17:25" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:25
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | dmose || but it's clearly something the market wants for these games || id="17:25" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:25
  
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || is the target "serious" heavy-duty 3d FPS type games, or casual-gamer (maybe 3d) games, or across the spectrum? || id="17:26" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:26
  
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | dmose || long-term, across the spectrum || id="17:27" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:27
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | dmose || but crawl, walk, run || id="17:27" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:27
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | dmose || and we're also trying to care significantly about mobile || id="17:27" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:27
  
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || gotcha. || id="17:27" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:27
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || Ah. That will be.... fun || id="17:27" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:27
  
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | dmose || so we're going to tend to pick our targets based on some combination of "what's most practical" * " most useful" || id="17:27" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:27
  
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || Did we talk about the sound issues on Android? || id="17:27" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:27
  
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | dmose || no we didn't || id="17:28" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:28
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | dmose || i'd love to know more || id="17:28" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:28
  
|-
| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || Well... it's bad. 1 sec || id="17:29" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:29
  
|-
| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | dmose || chuckles || id="17:29" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:29
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | dmose || good times! || id="17:29" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:29
  
|-
|  || style="color: #555;" | » lloyd|mbp is now known as lloyd. || id="17:29" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:29
  
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|  || style="color: #555;" | » lloyd left the chat room. || id="17:29" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:29
  
|-
| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || http://mindtherobot.com/blog/555/android-audio-problems-hidden-limitations-and-opensl-es/ || id="17:31" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:31
|-
| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || Google Android Audio Latency and you'll get a bunch of hits. || id="17:31" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:31
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || Or look at Andoird bug 3434 || id="17:31" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:31
  
|-
| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | dmose || ah, that's super helpful || id="17:31" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:31
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | dmose || t || id="17:31" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:31
|-
| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | dmose || hanks || id="17:31" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:31
  
|-
| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || Basically, latency sucks || id="17:31" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:31
|-
| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || there are tricks to minimize it, but they don't always work, depending on many htings || id="17:32" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:32
  
|-
| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | kinetik || i hope they've improved things in ICS. || id="17:32" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:32
  
|-
| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | dmose || fun times || id="17:32" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:32
  
|-
| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/printview.php?t=331703&amp;start=0 || id="17:33" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:33
|-
| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || "The only thing I recall is an article discussing ICS and the fact that there hadn't been any significant headway made. " || id="17:33" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:33
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || :-( || id="17:33" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:33
  
|-
| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | dmose || that's unfortunate || id="17:33" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:33
  
|-
| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || So, that's there. It's probably ok for games, thoiugh even there it requires work || id="17:36" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:36
|-
| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || Music apps it sucks for || id="17:36" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:36
  
|-
| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | dmose || good to know; i'm gonna go slap this on wiki page somewhere || id="17:36" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:36
  
|-
| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || Interactive stuff like webrtc - not good, though we can probably work, with trouble || id="17:36" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:36
  
|-
| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | dmose || that adds excitement || id="17:37" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:37
|-
| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | dmose || presumably chrome will have the same issues though || id="17:37" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:37
|-
| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | dmose || so perhaps that'll help motivate lower layer fixes || id="17:37" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:37
  
|-
| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || There are tricks to improve it, especially if you can pre-load and prepare your sounds (games often do) || id="17:37" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:37
  
|-
| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | dmose || yeah, we're going to need an asset-loading story || id="17:37" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:37
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | dmose || since games actually real-time apps || id="17:37" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:37
  
|-
| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || chrome may not, since it's the kernel drivers and flingers that are the issue || id="17:38" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:38
  
|-
| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | dmose || can you unpack that a bit? || id="17:38" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:38
  
|-
| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || chrome's kernel and androids are different; and I think the audio "flinger" layer is also. Some of the problems devolve from the interfaces for Java/Dalvik I understand. || id="17:39" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:39
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || I'm no expert on this, but I've taken note iof it since my old company had been planning to build Android-based standalone videophones || id="17:39" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:39
  
|-
| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | dmose || i don't mean chromeos || id="17:39" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:39
|-
| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | dmose || i mean chrome-the-browser || id="17:39" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:39
|-
| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | dmose || which is supposed to replace "browser" on android at some point || id="17:40" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:40
  
|-
| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || Aha. Again, it's the kernel/flinger, not the browser that's the problem || id="17:40" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:40
  
|-
| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | kinetik || (some stuff on android latency here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfiYUL2exT8#t=40m32s) || id="17:40" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:40
  
|-
| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | dmose || right, but my point being that if google cares about webrtc in their browser on android || id="17:40" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:40
  
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || Some of the hacks used by app developers for low-latency audio may be tough for a browser to do || id="17:40" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:40
  
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | dmose || that may motivate them to prioritize fixing the kernel || id="17:40" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:40
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | dmose || then again, maybe not :-) || id="17:41" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:41
  
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || Yes. But they're in no rush for ebrtc on android last I knew || id="17:41" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:41
  
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | dmose || kinetik: ah, thanks! || id="17:41" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:41
  
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || kinetik: thanks! || id="17:41" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:41
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || We spent a while discussing it at AllHands || id="17:41" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:41
  
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | dmose || ah well || id="17:41" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:41
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | dmose || too bad || id="17:41" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:41
  
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || kinetik: any revelations since then? || id="17:41" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:41
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || dmose: kinetik is another good person to talk to about this || id="17:42" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:42
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || (audio in general, low-latency) || id="17:42" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:42
  
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | dmose || good to know! i just started following the "areweplayingyet" tracking bug || id="17:42" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:42
  
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | kinetik || jesup: not so far, i'm planning to start working on libcubeb backend for android shortly || id="17:43" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:43
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | kinetik || and waiting for ICS to see what might've changed, latency wise || id="17:43" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:43
  
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || As for Webrtc and gaming: one thing that may help you a bunch is the low-latency congestion control we're doing, at least for media streams. || id="17:43" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:43
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || We're going to try to work it into the data streams too || id="17:43" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:43
  
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | dmose || are data streams == PeerConnection? || id="17:44" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:44
  
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | rillian_lime || they're a thing hanging off peerconnection objects || id="17:44" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:44
  
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || Multiplayer can be enhanced with audio chat betwen players/teams/"break-rooms", etc || id="17:44" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:44
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || yes || id="17:44" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:44
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || direct p2p data channels (mostly, sometimes has to bounce off a relay) || id="17:45" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:45
  
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | dmose || that'd be sweet || id="17:45" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:45
  
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || We hope to support reliable streams and datagrams, unreliable datagrams, and possibly partly-reliable datagrams (limited retry) || id="17:45" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:45
  
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | dmose || wow || id="17:45" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:45
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | dmose || sounds like a lot of work || id="17:45" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:45
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | dmose || but awesome! || id="17:45" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:45
  
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || encrypted, congestion-controlled, with the app having input into who gets the bits || id="17:46" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:46
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || (prioritized) || id="17:46" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:46
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || We're leveraging SCTP -over-UDP (really over DTLS-over-UDP) || id="17:46" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:46
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || (I assume, IETF consensus call on that tomorrow) || id="17:47" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:47
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || My proposal || id="17:47" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:47
  
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | dmose || break a leg :-) || id="17:47" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:47
  
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || Most of that comes pretty much for free with SCTP || id="17:47" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:47
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || The main things we're adding/improving is congestion cotnrol || id="17:47" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:47
  
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | dmose || does the code we have already include SCTP? || id="17:48" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:48
  
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || That's somewhat of my baby || id="17:48" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:48
  
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | dmose || nice || id="17:48" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:48
  
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || No, but we're working with the SCTP authors of the BSD implementation; they've split it out into user-space (actually updated the split) || id="17:48" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:48
  
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | dmose || very cool! || id="17:48" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:48
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | dmose || just waits for the day when firefox ships with a loadable kernel module || id="17:49" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:49
  
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || Even ignoreing media, there's a lot you can leverage there || id="17:49" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:49
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || b2g - inthe kernel || id="17:49" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:49
  
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | dmose || fair point || id="17:49" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:49
  
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || :-) || id="17:49" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:49
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || Webrtc and media - enables chat, group chat, locality-based chat with fading, messages, push-to-talk, etc || id="17:50" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:50
  
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | dmose || yeah, there's a lot to like || id="17:50" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:50
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | dmose || the interesting thing about gaming is that pretty much wants to inhale and use every possible capability of a given platform || id="17:51" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:51
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | dmose || so we definitely have to pick our priorities :-) || id="17:51" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:51
  
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || A useful demo/framework for some devs might be a 3-d meeting/chat/presentation with local audio between players "near" each other and a PA system. || id="17:51" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:51
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || It's not actually a game, but shows how you can use the tech to make games, with owrking examples || id="17:52" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:52
  
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | dmose || yeah, intriguing || id="17:52" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:52
  
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || Maybe a "slideshow" as well, or enterpise bridge main display :-) || id="17:53" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:53
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || and it removes the need to make the "game" portion, plus no one dings you on the game not being good as a game || id="17:53" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:53
  
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | dmose || very intriguing || id="17:54" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:54
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | dmose || does ircloggr have a way to show stuff in past-&gt;present order? || id="17:54" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:54
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | dmose || i want to AIM some of the other paladin folks at the logs of this discussion || id="17:55" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:55
  
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || I have to run in a sec, but another thing it will probably be able to do is to leave invites ("OFFERS") open with the server, and let it "fork" the OFFER to a play who has moved close enough so your browser and theirs can iopen direct audio channels || id="17:55" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:55
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || It's logged - see title || id="17:55" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:55
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || A bit painful, though || id="17:55" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:55
  
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | dmose || yeah, i'm looking at those logs, and they're kinda hard to read because they're in backwards order || id="17:55" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:55
  
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || If you're in chatzilla you can save the channel view || id="17:56" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:56
  
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | dmose || yeah, i'll just do that || id="17:56" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:56
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | dmose || that forking invites thing is a little brain-warping || id="17:56" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:56
  
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || We wouldn't mind a good demo/example of what can be doen with it either || id="17:57" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:57
  
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | dmose || duly noted || id="17:57" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:57
  
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || Normally forking is when you call someone, and they are logged in via N different devices. The offer is forked to all of them || id="17:57" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:57
  
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | dmose || ah, that's helpful context || id="17:57" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:57
  
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || they all ring, and when one picks up the others are cancelled - but they don't have to be (think in a house wiht N phones) || id="17:58" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:58
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || Or an offer to a meta-address for the workgroup, leading to a "mesh" conference (no central mixer). Trickier, but doable || id="17:58" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:58
  
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | dmose || cool || id="17:59" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:59
  
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || If they can remain open, the game server can leverage it. || id="17:59" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:59
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || Gotta run || id="17:59" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:59
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || hoep that helped || id="17:59" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 17:59
  
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | dmose || ok, thanks for the brain dump || id="18:00" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 18:00
  
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | jesup || ta || id="18:00" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 18:00
  
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| style="font-weight: bold; color: #555; text-align: right; vertical-align: top;" | dmose || that's super helpful || id="18:00" style="color: #555; font-size: 80%; vertical-align: top;" | 18:00
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