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--- Log opened Wed Jul 30 23:53:10 2008
--- Log opened Wed Jul 30 23:53:10 2008
23:53 -!- fantasai [fantasai@moz-989A079D.info] has joined #moz-identity
Mitchell: Plan to spend 10-15 min on question of Mozilla Identity
23:53 -!- ServerMode/#moz-identity [+n] by gravel.mozilla.org
Mitchell: Look at stuff on flip charts, get an idea of where they fit,
23:53 -!- Irssi: #moz-identity: Total of 1 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 0 normal]
          how do they fit
23:53 -!- Irssi: Join to #moz-identity was synced in 1 secs
Mitchell: ... discuss proposed goals
23:53 <@fantasai> Mitchell: Plan to spend 10-15 min on question of Mozilla Identity
Mitchell: I went through this tree. Didn't get any horrendous feedback
23:53 -!- reed [reed@tech.monkey] has joined #moz-identity
          saying it's wrong
23:53 <@fantasai> Mitchell: Look at stuff on flip charts, get an idea of where they fit, how do they fit
 
23:53 <@fantasai> Mitchell: ... discuss proposed goals
Mitchell: Things coming up lately, couple things that need to be represented
23:54 <@fantasai> Mitchell: I went through this tree. Didn't get any horrendous feedback saying it's wrong
          that aren't
23:54 <@fantasai> Mitchell: Things coming up lately, couple things that need to be represented that aren't
Mitchell: One, community
23:54 <@fantasai> Mitchell: One, community
Mitchell: It flows through everything we do. In one sense it's implicit
23:54 <@fantasai> Mitchell: It flows through everything we do. In one sense it's implicit in that, in one sense it's missing.
          in that, in one sense it's missing.
23:54 <@fantasai> Mitchell: So how do we represent the idea of community in that/
Mitchell: So how do we represent the idea of community in that?
23:55 <@fantasai> Mitchell: Do we consider it integral in every cell that we don't need to call it out, or does it need to be called out
Mitchell: Do we consider it integral in every cell that we don't need to
23:55 -!- silfreed [silfreed@moz-D5CF9ABA.westin.whistler.moz08] has joined #moz-identity
          call it out, or does it need to be called out
23:55 <@fantasai> Mitchell: Second thing is that the values from Manifesto aren't expressed in that diagram
 
23:55 <@fantasai> Mitchell: I'm not sure where they'd show up or how
Mitchell: Second thing is that the values from Manifesto aren't expressed
23:55 <@fantasai> Mitchell: If they're roots, or if public benefit root picks them up
          in that diagram
23:55 <@fantasai> Mitchell: But they are part of how we think about ourselves
Mitchell: I'm not sure where they'd show up or how
23:55 <@fantasai> Mitchell: e.g. is privacy a root, since it's something we value
Mitchell: If they're roots, or if public benefit root picks them up
23:56 <@fantasai> David Ascher: One thing about community that's interesting is everybody uses the word to mean the different things
Mitchell: But they are part of how we think about ourselves
23:56 <@fantasai> David: I never use it in the singular
Mitchell: e.g. is privacy a root, since it's something we value
23:56 <@fantasai> David: People belong to Mozilla community, but also other communities. E.g. qa community, l10n community
 
23:56 <@fantasai> David: In these people know each other intimately
David Ascher: One thing about community that's interesting is everybody
23:57 <@fantasai> David: Not like Mozilla community of 1/2 mill
              uses the word to mean the different things
23:57 <@fantasai> David: Community is interesting, but also a loaded term
David: I never use it in the singular
23:57 <@fantasai> fantasai: maybe think of it as veins that run through the tree?
David: People belong to Mozilla community, but also other communities.
23:57 <@fantasai> Zak: ....
      E.g. qa community, l10n community
23:58 <@fantasai> Zak: When ppl talk about community, they're talking about peeers
David: In these people know each other intimately
23:58 <@fantasai> Zak: people who are working on the same project, even remotely
David: Not like Mozilla community of 1/2 mill
23:58 <@fantasai> Zak: How many people think of users as part of community?
David: Community is interesting, but also a loaded term
23:58 <@fantasai> some raised hands
fantasai: maybe think of it as veins that run through the tree?
23:58 <@fantasai> Mitchell: .. goals and improving interaction is connection between different parts of Mozilla
Zak: ....
23:58 <@fantasai> Mitchell: support working w/qa
Zak: When ppl talk about community, they're talking about peers
23:58 <@fantasai> e.g
Zak: people who are working on the same project, even remotely
23:59 <@fantasai> David: One that's challenging about scale of Mozilla at this point
Zak: How many people think of users as part of community?
23:59 -!- ss [ss@samuelsidler.com] has joined #moz-identity
some raised hands
23:59 <@fantasai> David: I don't think humans are evolved to work with this many people
 
23:59 <@fantasai> David: Hard to be in contact with thousands of people
Mitchell: .. goals and improving interaction is connection between different
23:59 <@fantasai> David: Our brains are not wired for that
          parts of Mozilla
23:59 <@fantasai> David: .. healthy relationships at scale
Mitchell: support working w/qa
23:59 <@fantasai> David: So not everyboyd needs to know everybody else
e.g
--- Day changed Thu Jul 31 2008
 
00:00 <@fantasai> Atul:Question around who to trust around world of the internet
David: One that's challenging about scale of Mozilla at this point
00:00 <@fantasai> Atul: A lot of users coming to internet know noting about it
David: I don't think humans are evolved to work with this many people
00:00 <@fantasai> Atul: Intersting discussions about security. Users tend to assume that anywhere on the internet is dangerous
David: Hard to be in contact with thousands of people
00:00 <@fantasai> Atul: In reality, I only visit a subset of the internet that I consider to be safe
David: Our brains are not wired for that
00:01 <@fantasai> Atul: I will only choose to share my personal info with a small amount of that
David: .. healthy relationships at scale
00:01 <@fantasai> Atul: Goes into things like kind of software you download
David: So not everybody needs to know everybody else
00:01 <@fantasai> Atul: Firefox is a gateway to everything you put on your computer to some extent.
 
00:01 <@fantasai> Atul: How do you trust
Atul: Question around who to trust around world of the Internet
00:01 <@fantasai> Atul: How do you know who /what to trust on the Internet.
Atul: A lot of users coming to Internet know noting about it
00:01 <@fantasai> Atul: THere's no real sense of identity built on the internet.
Atul: Interesting discussions about security. Users tend to assume that
00:01 <@fantasai> Atul: One thing I think about is doing something, something social. Social network so that my parents could say I trust my son, things that he does...
      anywhere on the Internet is dangerous
00:02 <@fantasai> Mitchell: You're talking about a more abstract concept of community
Atul: In reality, I only visit a subset of the Internet that I consider to be safe
00:02 <@fantasai> Mitchell: A community of trust. A layer that is really different ...
Atul: I will only choose to share my personal info with a small amount of that
00:02 <@fantasai> Mitchell: I can't figure out livechat
Atul: Goes into things like kind of software you download
00:02 <@fantasai> (...?)
Atul: Firefox is a gateway to everything you put on your computer to some extent.
00:02 <@fantasai> Mitchell: Interesting set of identity, hard to represent as communities get more abstract
Atul: How do you trust
00:02 <@fantasai> Zak: If we had this biological model of what we are.
Atul: How do you know who/what to trust on the Internet.
00:03 <@fantasai> Zak: Community is what we create, but also what we need.
Atul: There's no real sense of identity built on the Internet.
00:03 <@fantasai> Zak: Same thing with values in manifest.
Atul: One thing I think about is doing something, something social. Social
00:03 <@fantasai> Zak: Like we're trying to create the environment that we need
      network so that my parents could say I trust my son, things that he
00:03 <@fantasai> Zak: create what's in the manifesto
      does...
00:03 <@fantasai> Zak: It's kinda like plants. They slowly changed the arth to be what they want it to be.
Mitchell: You're talking about a more abstract concept of community
00:03 <@fantasai> Nicolas: It might be useful to separate community out into a noun and a verb
Mitchell: A community of trust. A layer that is really different ...
00:04 <@fantasai> Nicolas: The tree, you can almost put a title that says "THe Mozilla Community"
Mitchell: I can't figure out livechat
00:04 <@fantasai> Nicolas: One of the roots of the communmity, one of the shared practices, is about a community approach.
(...?)
00:04 <@fantasai> Nicolas: About less hierarchical, about creating communities
Mitchell: Interesting set of identity, hard to represent as communities
00:04 <@fantasai> Nicolas: Community is a practice that Mozilla encourages.
          get more abstract
00:04 <@fantasai> Nicolas: I think the practice of doing community is something, and the end result is the Mozilla Community
 
00:05 <@fantasai> Gandalf: There's a term for that, a participatory approach.
Zak: If we had this biological model of what we are.
00:05 <@fantasai> Gandalf: You can look at hierarchical org or participatory org
Zak: Community is what we create, but also what we need.
00:05 <@fantasai> Gandalf: We're defiinitely a participatory org. Empowering participating approache
Zak: Same thing with values in manifest.
00:05 <@fantasai> Gandalf: I would stake community as a noune
Zak: Like we're trying to create the environment that we need
00:05 <@fantasai> Gandalf: And participation as a verb
Zak: create what's in the manifesto
00:06 <@fantasai> Gandalf: It's hard enough to define ...
Zak: It's kinda like plants. They slowly changed the earth to be what they
00:06 <@fantasai> Gandalf: Like David said, we have trouble remembering this many people
    want it to be.
00:06 <@fantasai> Gandalf: You're in one hundred communities of two hundred million people
 
00:06 <@fantasai> Gandalf: you're in community of 200,000,000 ppl using FF
Nicolas: It might be useful to separate community out into a noun and a verb
00:07 <@fantasai> David: I look at this picture and I completely understand it from my position, I know how pieces fit together
Nicolas: The tree, you can almost put a title that says "The Mozilla Community"
00:07 <@fantasai> David: I look back to several years ago to when I was a community member
 
00:07 <@fantasai> David: with a different day job
Nicolas: One of the roots of the community, one of the shared practices,
00:07 <@fantasai> David: and trying to figoure where I fit there, is a little intersting
        is about a community approach.
00:07 <@fantasai> David: I think the roots are why I cared about Mozilla before I was really involved
Nicolas: About less hierarchical, about creating communities
00:07 <@fantasai> David: but other parts are not so relevant
Nicolas: Community is a practice that Mozilla encourages.
00:07 <@fantasai> David: ....
Nicolas: I think the practice of doing community is something, and the
00:07 <@fantasai> David: consumer products which are very focused on some smaller set of people
        end result is the Mozilla Community
00:08 <@fantasai> David: If you're not close into Mozilla, which part of Mozilla are relevant to you are fuzzy and hard
 
00:08 <@fantasai> Mitchell: So I'd take from that namimg the whole thing THe Mozilla Community isn't quite right
Gandalf: There's a term for that, a participatory approach.
00:08 <@fantasai> Mitchell: This leads me to think .. don't really have a clear vision of how this fits into community
Gandalf: You can look at hierarchical org or participatory org
00:08 <@fantasai> Mitchell: .. find it useful, but don't know how to merge it into that.
Gandalf: We're definitely a participatory org. Empowering participating
00:09 <@fantasai> Mitchell: either don't know how to visualize it in there, or maybe it's something else
        approach
00:09 <@fantasai> Gerv: Is there a correlation between the tree and the concentric circles of community?
Gandalf: I would stake community as a noun
00:09 <@fantasai> Gerv: E.g. ppl who are deeply involved, check into cvs, are an inner circle. people who use our code are an outer circle
Gandalf: And participation as a verb
00:10 <@fantasai> Gerv: The further out you go, the less the values in the roots are deeply held
Gandalf: It's hard enough to define ...
00:10 <@fantasai> ?: It seems like there does need to be a place somewhere there.
Gandalf: Like David said, we have trouble remembering this many people
00:10 <@fantasai> ?: Mozilla communities- you don't need to fit into and participate in all the branches to be part of it
Gandalf: You're in one hundred communities of two hundred million people
00:10 <@fantasai> ?: I like the idea that we could label the whole metaphor community
Gandalf: you're in community of 200,000,000 ppl using FF
00:11 <@fantasai> Guillermo: It's difficult to draw the concentric cirlces in the same image
 
00:11 <@fantasai> Guillermo: Maybe the tree rings
David: I look at this picture and I completely understand it from my position,
00:11 <@fantasai> Mitchell: I'm inclined to take these ideas back and see if we can merge them
      I know how pieces fit together
00:11 <@fantasai> Mitchell: Or if we should keep them separate for awhile
David: I look back to several years ago to when I was a community member
00:12 <@fantasai> bsmedberg: I don't think the communmity belongs on that tree
David: with a different day job
00:12 <@fantasai> bsmedberg: I think shared goals or shared something define the community
David: and trying to figure where I fit there, is a little interesting
00:12 <@fantasai> bsmedberg: but if you come up with the shared whatever we are, the community flows from that
David: I think the roots are why I cared about Mozilla before I was really
00:12 <@fantasai> bsmedberg: saying that we are a community without having the sared goals is backwards to me
      involved
00:12 <@fantasai> Tiffney: I think we're going with this metaphore you can look as community as ecosystem
David: but other parts are not so relevant
00:13 <@fantasai> Tiffney: You can't dissect the ecosystem from that picture
David: ....
00:13 <@fantasai> summary of her comments: Community as ecosystem
David: consumer products which are very focused on some smaller set of people
00:13 <@fantasai> Zak: I can't figure out what other community from history we're like?
David: If you're not close into Mozilla, which part of Mozilla are relevant
00:13 <@fantasai> Zak: There's no form to fill out, no creed. Maybe that's why we're confused as to what we are
      to you are fuzzy and hard
00:14 <@fantasai> Gerv: The reason that's been possible is the zero-incremental cost of copying softare
 
00:14 <@fantasai> Gerv: 20 years ago nobody could reach 200 mill people with useful stuff
Mitchell: So I'd take from that naming the whole thing The Mozilla Community
00:14 <@fantasai> Mitchell: the other thing that came up a lot is values
          isn't quite right
00:14 <@fantasai> Mitchell: Manifesto values, that don't overtly show up in that
Mitchell: This leads me to think .. don't really have a clear vision of
00:14 <@fantasai> Mitchell: We could try to distill a few of them, and make them roots or branches or something
          how this fits into community
00:15 <@fantasai> Mitchell: One term I want to use, although it's overloaded, is user sovereignty
Mitchell: .. find it useful, but don't know how to merge it into that.
00:15 <@fantasai> Mitchell: Any thoughts?
Mitchell: either don't know how to visualize it in there, or maybe it's
00:15 <@fantasai> David: You could just point to manifest, or say manifesto values
          something else
00:15 <@fantasai> David: Manifesto describes a lot of values
Gerv: Is there a correlation between the tree and the concentric circles
00:16 <@fantasai> David: ... I hate to use the word morals
      of community?
00:16 <@fantasai> David: there are some sort of moral underpinnings that drive ...
Gerv: E.g. ppl who are deeply involved, check into cvs, are an inner circle.
00:17 <@fantasai> fantasai: So what I'm seeing here is that the values in the roots are how we operate, and the values in the manifesto are things we value and want to create
      people who use our code are an outer circle
00:17 <@fantasai> Mark: ....
Gerv: The further out you go, the less the values in the roots are deeply held
00:17 <@fantasai> Mark: Thinking about where to put the values. We haven't used the leaves at all. There's unused real estate in the leaves
?: It seems like there does need to be a place somewhere there.
00:17 <@fantasai> Gerv: The tree starts small and grows more
?: Mozilla communities- you don't need to fit into and participate in all
00:17 <@fantasai> Gerv: So maybe the values are suspended in the air, what we're aiming up
  the branches to be part of it
00:18 <@fantasai> Eric: Talkign about community, and ecosystem. A forest of trees would represent our user base or community
?: I like the idea that we could label the whole metaphor community
00:18 <@fantasai> Eric: Maybe show that oure interested is civic benefit of the forest
Guillermo: It's difficult to draw the concentric cirlces in the same image
00:19 <@fantasai> ?: If you're very far from trees they look very different from up close
Guillermo: Maybe the tree rings
00:19 <@fantasai> ?: Something to think about
Mitchell: I'm inclined to take these ideas back and see if we can merge them
00:19 <@fantasai> Zak: Also some people see trees as lumber
Mitchell: Or if we should keep them separate for awhile
00:19 <@fantasai> ??: I feel the values belong at the roots, and maybe those attributes of Mozilla are something that belong as clouds
 
00:19 < silfreed> ^Zach
bsmedberg: I don't think the community belongs on that tree
00:19 <@fantasai> ??: Raining down and enriching the growth of the tree
bsmedberg: I think shared goals or shared something define the community
00:20 <@fantasai> fantasai: I don't think that matches, the roots really anchor this project/community
bsmedberg: but if you come up with the shared whatever we are, the community
00:20 <@fantasai> Mitchell: One thing that's different about Mozilla is our focus on producing a product rather than being an advocacy organization
          flows from that
00:21 <@fantasai> Gandalf: I was thinking about what zak said, part of us considers users part of community or community itself, and others don't
bsmedberg: saying that we are a community without having the shared goals
00:21 <@fantasai> Gandalf: It would be a good idea to claim that the community is made up of people who consider themselves part of community
          is backwards to me
00:21 <@fantasai> s/?/Blizzard/
 
00:22 <@fantasai> Gandalf: So ppl who use product and consider themselves part of community are, and those who don't aren't
Tiffney: I think we're going with this metaphor you can look as community
00:22 <@fantasai> Gandalf: It's a very open community
        as ecosystem
00:22 <@fantasai> Gandalf: anyone can decide to participate
Tiffney: You can't dissect the ecosystem from that picture
00:22 <@fantasai> Mitchell: So you'd have a user base that was important to our effectiveness, but you wouldn't consider part of the community
summary of her comments: Community as ecosystem
00:22 <@fantasai> simon: ...
 
00:23 <@fantasai> simon: every little bit that you do, besides downloading thu/ff and installing it
Zak: I can't figure out what other community from history we're like?
00:23 <@fantasai> simon: things you do like telling your friend, this solftware is great you should use it
Zak: There's no form to fill out, no creed. Maybe that's why we're confused
00:23 <@fantasai> simon: or pubishing a holiday calendar for sunbird
    as to what we are
00:23 <@fantasai> simon: that makes you part of the community, whether you consider yourself part of the community or not
Gerv: The reason that's been possible is the zero-incremental cost of
00:23 <@fantasai> Mitchell: We have a difference of opinion of whether we consier the user base part of the community or not
      copying softare
00:24 <@fantasai> Mitchell: we should be clear that it's different from other communities
Gerv: 20 years ago nobody could reach 200 mill people with useful stuff
00:24 <@fantasai> ?: Going back to Zak's point, .. distinguishes use from other kinds of nonprofits. Every effective nonprofit chooses a strategy.
 
00:24 <@fantasai> ?: E.g. EFF chose lawsuits as it's approach.
Mitchell: the other thing that came up a lot is values
00:24 <@fantasai> Brian: We do have advocacy aorund a certain set of positions
Mitchell: Manifesto values, that don't overtly show up in that
00:25 <@fantasai> Brian: Our strategy is around a free product
Mitchell: We could try to distill a few of them, and make them roots or
00:25 <@fantasai> Brian: Because veryone would be tied to MS if there wasn't an alternative.
          branches or something
00:25 <@fantasai> Brian: We get user power from 1.0 lauch onwards
Mitchell: One term I want to use, although it's overloaded, is user sovereignty
00:25 <@fantasai> Brian: The balls in our court to define that. How much are users a group that we want to involve?
Mitchell: Any thoughts?
00:25 <@fantasai> Mitchell: So we have some question of whether roots are roots or values are roots
David: You could just point to manifest, or say manifesto values
00:25 <@fantasai> Mitchell: Any other thoughts on this?
David: Manifesto describes a lot of values
00:26 <@fantasai> Mtichell: there was use real estate of leave
David: ... I hate to use the word morals
00:26 <@fantasai> Mitchell: I don't know where values goe on the tree
David: there are some sort of moral underpinnings that drive ...
00:26 <@fantasai> s/Mitchell/ someone  else/
 
00:26 <@fantasai> ??: ... people are here not because they care about making good products, but also they care about advancing values through these products.
fantasai: So what I'm seeing here is that the values in the roots are how
00:26 <@fantasai> ??: the values are our goal
          we operate, and the values in the manifesto are things we value
00:26 <@fantasai> ??: it's absolutely central, and the purpose of the products is to achieve that
          and want to create
00:27 <@fantasai> Mitchell: So I think values is the trunk.
 
00:27 <@fantasai> Mitchell: It currently says human interaction with internet
Mark: ....
00:27 <@fantasai> Mitchell: but it's a certain type of interaction that we're dealing with
Mark: Thinking about where to put the values. We haven't used the leaves
00:27 <@fantasai> Asa: We talk about values. We're not just advancing them, we're inventing them.
      at all. There's unused real estate in the leaves
00:27 <@fantasai> Asa: We're inventing values for a new world on the net. It didn't used to have this value landscape.
Gerv: The tree starts small and grows more
00:27 <@fantasai> Asa: Tricky, because we're both advancing them and creating them
Gerv: So maybe the values are suspended in the air, what we're aiming up
00:28 <@fantasai> Asa: both in terms of defining them, but also in creating them through products that advance those values
 
00:28 <@fantasai> Asa: If eel like our products are the embodiment of our values.
Eric: Talking about community, and ecosystem. A forest of trees would
00:28 <@fantasai> Asa: We invtendt the values, then invented products to make them real
      represent our user base or community
00:28 <@fantasai> Aa: It really is the bark that's over the whole tree
Eric: Maybe show that our interest is civic benefit of the forest
00:28 <@fantasai> Asa: Same way that community adn participation are
 
00:29 <@fantasai> Asa: We aren't participation because it's useful, but because we believe it's integral to the web
Blizzard(?): If you're very far from trees they look very different from up
00:29 <@fantasai> Asa: For those two in particular, I'm opposed to making it an appendage
            close
00:29 <@fantasai> Asa: They feel more like circulatory system.
Blizzard(?): Something to think about
00:29 <@fantasai> Zach: Where does innovation fit into this? We have this shared bias towards innovation, show me the code.
Zak: Also some people see trees as lumber
00:29 <@fantasai> ???: The roots feel like methods
Zach(?): I feel the values belong at the roots, and maybe those attributes
00:30 <@fantasai> Mitchell: This would be a question, maybe it's historical
        of Mozilla are something that belong as clouds
00:30 <@fantasai> Mitchell: My sense is that those methods are deep enough to be a sense of identity
Zach(?): Raining down and enriching the growth of the tree
00:30 <@fantasai> Mitchell: I think if you ask the people here, if you could create something that doesn't have that, wouldn't identify as Mozilla
fantasai: I don't think that matches, the roots really anchor this
00:30 <@fantasai> Gerv: So We can pull this tree metaphor every which way.
          project/community
00:30 <@fantasai> Gerv: leaving aside the tree.
 
00:31 <@fantasai> Gerv: Things come out of your values via your methods to produce results
Mitchell: One thing that's different about Mozilla is our focus on producing
00:31 <@fantasai> Gerv: I don't think the participatory web is a result
          a product rather than being an advocacy organization
00:31 <@fantasai> Gerv: It's a means to an end which is whatever the people participating get out of
 
00:31 <@fantasai> it
Gandalf: I was thinking about what zak said, part of us considers users
00:31 <@fantasai> Gerv: If that were true, perhaps the roots are the value,s the trunk are the things that are the things in the trunk
        part of community or community itself, and others don't
00:31 <@fantasai> Gerv: and what we make are the fruits
Gandalf: It would be a good idea to claim that the community is made up
00:32 <@fantasai> Gerv: Maybe we need to step back away from the tree and think how they fit together, then put them back on the tree
        of people who consider themselves part of community
00:32 <@fantasai> Guillermo: Maybe the values could be the ... the liquid inside the tree. the Sap
Gandalf: So ppl who use product and consider themselves part of community
00:32 <@fantasai> Mitchell: So 2 proposals for changing tre
        are, and those who don't aren't
00:32 <@fantasai> Mitchell: question of how we work
Gandalf: It's a very open community
00:32 <@fantasai> Mitchell: We're not going to use public benefit , shared asset, to get to the web would we still feel like Mozilla
Gandalf: anyone can decide to participate
00:33 <@fantasai> Mark: Theres a guy who put out a book called Two Bits, where he looked as open source movement
Mitchell: So you'd have a user base that was important to our effectiveness,
00:33 <@fantasai> Mark: He says that what's different from other social movments
          but you wouldn't consider part of the community
00:33 <@fantasai> mark: Is that the values and the practices are embedded in each other
simon: ...
00:33 <@fantasai> mark: not just advocating values
simon: every little bit that you do, besides downloading thu/ff and
00:33 <@fantasai> Mark: You kinda have to keep them, they're together
      installing it
00:33 <@fantasai> Mark: they're in the roots is right
simon: things you do like telling your friend, this solftware is great you
00:33 <@fantasai> Mitchell: Want to talk a bit about goals
      should use it
00:34 <@fantasai> Look through bunch of stuff on goals
simon: or publishing a holiday calendar for sunbird
00:34 <@fantasai> Mitchell: Weren't a lot of comments syaing this is a terrible goal, take it off
simon: that makes you part of the community, whether you consider yourself
00:34 <@fantasai> Mitchell: where we've got so far
      part of the community or not
00:34 <@fantasai> Mitchell: Firefox should continue, momentum, agreement there
Mitchell: We have a difference of opinion of whether we consider the user
00:35 <@fantasai> Mitchell: Not much comments on Mobile saying no. Most comments are why not already and here's how to do it
          base part of the community or not
00:35 <@fantasai> Mitchell: Two things are data and information
Mitchell: we should be clear that it's different from other communities
00:35 <@fantasai> Mitchell: potentially most divisive
 
00:35 <@fantasai> Mitchell: Mozilla and open internet has another large set of ideas
?: Going back to Zak's point, .. distinguishes use from other kinds of
00:35 <@fantasai> Mitchell: Just want to call out what came out from open internet
  nonprofits. Every effective nonprofit chooses a strategy.
00:35 <@fantasai> Mitchell: then talk about data
?: E.g. EFF chose lawsuits as it's approach.
00:36 <@fantasai> Mitchell: For mozilla as open internet and mozilla as community
Brian: We do have advocacy around a certain set of positions
00:36 <@fantasai> Mitchell: Some education and evangelism function, both internally and externally
Brian: Our strategy is around a free product
00:36 <@fantasai> Mitchell: Internal ones captured best as
Brian: Because everyone would be tied to MS if there wasn't an alternative.
00:36 <@fantasai> Mitchell: There's some way that mozilla communities grow. Some ways that knowledge is implicit, but we don't make it explicit
Brian: We get user power from 1.0 launch onwards
00:36 <@fantasai> Mitchell: Example, small l10n team. How do you grow that team?
Brian: The balls in our court to define that. How much are users a group
00:37 <@fantasai> Mitchell: We've done it tons of time, but there's no set of steps
      that we want to involve?
00:37 <@fantasai> Mitchell: So there's no understood way to do it
 
00:37 <@fantasai> Mitchell: we do it well, but it's very ad-hoc
Mitchell: So we have some question of whether roots are roots or values
00:37 <@fantasai> MitchelL: e.g. I found my way in, but I odn't know how I did it, and I don't know how to help someone else
          are roots
00:37 <@fantasai> Mitchell: Very strong intersest in figuring out how to be clear on what entry paths work, what are experiences are and how to use them.
Mitchell: Any other thoughts on this?
00:37 <@fantasai> Mitchell: We know a lot of things
Mtichell: there was use real estate of leaves
00:38 <@fantasai> Mitchell: about scale, l10n, upgrades, etc.
 
00:38 <@fantasai> Mitchell: What's path for Mozilla to spread that knowledge to those who want it?
??: I don't know where values go on the tree
00:38 <@fantasai> mitchell: reluctant to have too long list of goals, but that seems like something that should show up more explicitly
??: ... people are here not because they care about making good products,
00:38 <@fantasai> Mitchell: Other thing ins emphasis on content. encourage open content creation on the internet
    but also they care about advancing values through these products.
00:38 <@fantasai> Mitchell: i'd put them as a center piece of the open web or open internet
??: the values are our goal
00:38 <@fantasai> Mitchell: Tools we should think about and think hard how to do them.
??: it's absolutely central, and the purpose of the products is to achieve
00:39 <@fantasai> Mitchell: Anything else missing?
    that
00:39 <@fantasai> David: I like part about teaching the knowledge and skills that mOizlla has earned to outside
Mitchell: So I think values is the trunk.
00:39 <@fantasai> David: Flips ide is we only get to open internet by collaborating with others
Mitchell: It currently says human interaction with internet
00:39 <@fantasai> David: one thing I try to figure out is how do we effectively learn from others, not just tell them hthis is what works?
Mitchell: but it's a certain type of interaction that we're dealing with
00:39 <@fantasai> Mitchell: so learning to collaborate and inward bound learning
 
00:40 <@fantasai> Gerv: On content creation piece
Asa: We talk about values. We're not just advancing them, we're inventing them.
00:40 <@fantasai> Gerv: Mark mad ea good point about content creation
Asa: We're inventing values for a new world on the net. It didn't used
00:40 <@fantasai> Gerv: THe project we are is composed of seamonkey, effectively
    to have this value landscape.
00:40 <@fantasai> Gerv: How do you create content for the web has hcanged a lot since days of NS4
Asa: Tricky, because we're both advancing them and creating them
00:40 <@fantasai> Gerv: Nowadays ppl wanting to put thoughts on web, just get a blog.
Asa: both in terms of defining them, but also in creating them through
00:40 <@fantasai> Gerv: People that do more than that do ajax-based interactive websites
    products that advance those values
00:41 <@fantasai> Gerv: In one sense the content creation part is done.
Asa: I feel like our products are the embodiment of our values.
00:41 <@fantasai> Gerv: blogs, cms, wiki
Asa: We invented the values, then invented products to make them real
00:41 <@fantasai> Gerv: Or we're not done.
 
00:41 <@fantasai> Gerv: Do we make tools for putting ocntent on the web?
Asa: It really is the bark that's over the whole tree
00:41 <@fantasai> Mitchell: Looks like Travel is taking over here
Asa: Same way that community and participation are
00:41 <@fantasai> ????: Last comments on where it goes and how to continue discussion?
Asa: We aren't participation because it's useful, but because we believe
00:42 <@fantasai> Mitchell: What re good ways to continue this conversation? Clearly not my blog?
    it's integral to the web
00:42 <@fantasai> Mitchell: I'm the leader for this particular set of discussions.
Asa: For those two in particular, I'm opposed to making it an appendage
00:42 <@fantasai> Mitchell: if nothing else send it to me
Asa: They feel more like circulatory system.
00:42 <@fantasai> Zak: Wiki?
 
00:43 <@fantasai> simon: .. blog
Zach: Where does innovation fit into this? We have this shared bias towards
00:43 <@fantasai> Gerv: good thing about newsgroup is that it's newsgroup, mailing list, google group, rrs
      innovation, show me the code.
00:43 <@fantasai> Mitchell: Will send mail to summit alias
???: The roots feel like methods
00:43 <@fantasai> Mitchell: I do have a blog, do send comments :)
Mitchell: This would be a question, maybe it's historical
00:44 <@fantasai> Ctalbert: I was at OSCON last week
Mitchell: My sense is that those methods are deep enough to be a sense of
00:44 <@fantasai> ctalbert: One session from Intel was talking about three challenges on Internet
          identity
00:44 <@fantasai> ctalbert: And one challenge was data.
Mitchell: I think if you ask the people here, if you could create something
00:44 <@fantasai> ctalbert: and how Intel can help you integrate data on the net
          that doesn't have that, wouldn't identify as Mozilla
00:44 <@fantasai> ctalbert: that made my skin crawl
 
00:45 <@fantasai> Mitchell: the ... is not privacy for each person
Gerv: So we can pull this tree metaphor every which way.
00:45 <@fantasai> Mitchell: My ability to protect my data when I want to, that's Foundation step
Gerv: leaving aside the tree.
00:45 <@fantasai> MitchelL: Problem is most of you, most of us, will trade personal data for convenience and features
Gerv: Things come out of your values via your methods to produce results
00:45 <@fantasai> Mitchell: We're all making those trades
Gerv: I don't think the participatory web is a result
00:45 <@fantasai> Mitchell And the conceptual issue is that most consumers want some data to be shared.
Gerv: It's a means to an end which is whatever the people participating
00:46 <@fantasai> MtichelL: and different people make different trads for how much data for how much free stuff
      get out of it
00:46 <@fantasai> Mitchell: A lot of consumers want things very dfferent
Gerv: If that were true, perhaps the roots are the values, the trunk are
00:46 <@fantasai> Mitchell: Of course you can keep data private and not share.
      the things that are the things in the trunk
00:46 <@fantasai> Mitchell: But when you want websites to use data for some things, that's hard
Gerv: and what we make are the fruits
00:47 <@fantasai> Blizzard: One thing I learned with project I did was vast difference in expectations of privacy
Gerv: Maybe we need to step back away from the tree and think how they
00:47 <@fantasai> Blizzard: experience from all over spectrum
      fit together, then put them back on the tree
00:47 <@fantasai> blizzard: there's no common language. People don't even know how to think about it
Guillermo: Maybe the values could be the ... the liquid inside the tree.
00:47 <@fantasai> blizzard: we need to define that language, give them a wayt o talk about it
          The sap.
00:48 <@fantasai> blizzard: seems that education function has to be the first step
 
00:48 <@fantasai> blizzard: esp outside our space where we've thought about it
Mitchell: So 2 proposals for changing tree
00:48 <@fantasai> blizzard: coming up with framework would be important
Mitchell: question of how we work
00:48 <@fantasai> Mitchell: Another set of posts lacking comments...
Mitchell: We're not going to use public benefit, shared asset, to get to
00:48 <@fantasai> Zak: I think Tiffney really nailed it when she called it an ecosystem.
          the web would we still feel like Mozilla
00:49 <@fantasai> Zak: our ecosystem is thriving
 
00:49 <@fantasai> Zak: we care about our values, most ppl using firefox don't know and don't care
Mark: Theres a guy who put out a book called Two Bits, where he looked as
00:49 <@fantasai> Zak: the more we provide value, the more we get a chance to explain to them about privacy
      open source movement
00:49 <@fantasai> zak: tour product is our vehicle for our vlualues
Mark: He says that what's different from other social movements
00:49 <@fantasai> MitchelL: Advocating privacy and building a product that that allows it is dfferent
mark: Is that the values and the practices are embedded in each other
00:50 <@fantasai> Mitchell: there's an advocacy piece
mark: not just advocating values
00:50 <@fantasai> Mitchell: but I'm interested in building a product that actually protects pricvacy
Mark: You kinda have to keep them, they're together
00:50 <@fantasai> Asa: We can't convince the world that it matters, but we can build a product that  does it ...
Mark: they're in the roots is right
00:50 <@fantasai> that has features that allows ppl to manage their data in a way that protects it
 
00:51 <@fantasai> ....
Mitchell: Want to talk a bit about goals
00:51 -!- silfreed [silfreed@moz-D5CF9ABA.westin.whistler.moz08] has left #moz-identity [Konversation terminated!]
Look through bunch of stuff on goals
00:52 <@fantasai> Meeting usurped by Lilly
Mitchell: Weren't a lot of comments saying this is a terrible goal, take
          it off
Mitchell: where we've got so far
Mitchell: Firefox should continue, momentum, agreement there
Mitchell: Not much comments on Mobile saying no. Most comments are why not
          already and here's how to do it
 
Mitchell: Two things are data and information
Mitchell: potentially most divisive
Mitchell: Mozilla and open Internet has another large set of ideas
Mitchell: Just want to call out what came out from open Internet
Mitchell: then talk about data
Mitchell: For Mozilla as open Internet and Mozilla as community
Mitchell: Some education and evangelism function, both internally and
          externally
 
Mitchell: Internal ones captured best as
Mitchell: There's some way that Mozilla communities grow. Some ways that
          knowledge is implicit, but we don't make it explicit
Mitchell: Example, small l10n team. How do you grow that team?
Mitchell: We've done it tons of time, but there's no set of steps
Mitchell: So there's no understood way to do it
Mitchell: we do it well, but it's very ad-hoc
Mitchell: e.g. I found my way in, but I don't know how I did it, and I
          don't know how to help someone else
Mitchell: Very strong interest in figuring out how to be clear on what
          entry paths work, what are experiences are and how to use them.
Mitchell: We know a lot of things
Mitchell: about scale, l10n, upgrades, etc.
Mitchell: What's path for Mozilla to spread that knowledge to those who
          want it?
mitchell: reluctant to have too long list of goals, but that seems like
          something that should show up more explicitly
 
Mitchell: Other thing ins emphasis on content. encourage open content
          creation on the Internet
Mitchell: I'd put them as a center piece of the open web or open Internet
Mitchell: Tools we should think about and think hard how to do them.
Mitchell: Anything else missing?
 
David: I like part about teaching the knowledge and skills that Mozilla
      has earned to outside
David: Flip side is we only get to open Internet by collaborating with others
David: one thing I try to figure out is how do we effectively learn from
      others, not just tell them this is what works?
Mitchell: so learning to collaborate and inward-bound learning
 
Gerv: On content creation piece
Gerv: Mark made a good point about content creation
Gerv: The project we are is composed of seamonkey, effectively
Gerv: How do you create content for the web has changed a lot since days
      of NS4
Gerv: Nowadays ppl wanting to put thoughts on web, just get a blog.
Gerv: People that do more than that do ajax-based interactive websites
Gerv: In one sense the content creation part is done.
Gerv: blogs, cms, wiki
Gerv: Or we're not done.
Gerv: Do we make tools for putting content on the web?
 
Mitchell: Looks like Travel is taking over here
????: Last comments on where it goes and how to continue discussion?
Mitchell: What are good ways to continue this conversation? Clearly not
          my blog?
Mitchell: I'm the leader for this particular set of discussions.
Mitchell: if nothing else send it to me
Zak: Wiki?
simon: .. blog
Gerv: good thing about newsgroup is that it's newsgroup, mailing list,
      google group, rrs
Mitchell: Will send mail to summit alias
Mitchell: I do have a blog, do send comments :)
 
ctalbert: I was at OSCON last week
ctalbert: One session from Intel was talking about three challenges on Internet
ctalbert: And one challenge was data.
ctalbert: and how Intel can help you integrate data on the net
ctalbert: that made my skin crawl
Mitchell: the ... is not privacy for each person
Mitchell: My ability to protect my data when I want to, that's Foundation step
Mitchell: Problem is most of you, most of us, will trade personal data for
          convenience and features
Mitchell: We're all making those trades
Mitchell And the conceptual issue is that most consumers want some data
        to be shared.
MtichelL: and different people make different trades for how much data
          for how much free stuff
Mitchell: A lot of consumers want things very different
Mitchell: Of course you can keep data private and not share.
Mitchell: But when you want websites to use data for some things, that's hard
Blizzard: One thing I learned with project I did was vast difference in
          expectations of privacy
Blizzard: experience from all over spectrum
blizzard: there's no common language. People don't even know how to think
          about it
blizzard: we need to define that language, give them a way to talk about it
blizzard: seems that education function has to be the first step
blizzard: esp outside our space where we've thought about it
blizzard: coming up with framework would be important
Mitchell: Another set of posts lacking comments...
 
Zak: I think Tiffney really nailed it when she called it an ecosystem.
Zak: our ecosystem is thriving  
Zak: we care about our values, most people using firefox don't know and
    don't care
Zak: the more we provide value, the more we get a chance to explain to them
      about privacy
zak: our product is our vehicle for our values
 
Mitchell: Advocating privacy and building a product that that allows it
          is different
Mitchell: there's an advocacy piece
Mitchell: but I'm interested in building a product that actually protects
          privacy
Asa: We can't convince the world that it matters, but we can build a product
    that  does it, that has features that allows people to manage their data
    in a way that protects it
....
Meeting usurped by Lilly
</pre>
</pre>
Fantasai
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