View source for CloudServices/Roadmaps/Presence/Meetings/notes 20131031

participants:<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; tarek - services<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ckarlof - Identity FxA<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; sam - Identity FxA<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ben - Services<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; jed - Identity FxA Stormtrooper (TK-421)<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; jr - Services protocol monkey<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; nchapman - Services/XMPP&nbsp;<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; telliott - Services monkey wrangler<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ozten - Identity demigod<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Ed - QA manager for services<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; jbonacci - QA&nbsp;<br
/><br
/><b>Agenda</b><br
/>Q: What does "Presence" mean and how can we solve the problem?<br
/><br
/><b><i>* Findings so far:</i></b><br
/><br
/>Talkilla<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Uses Persona Auth<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; No privacy (one server=one big chat room)<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Ad-hoc long polling presence/signalling server &lt;- might move to websockets one day<br
/>&nbsp;see https://github.com/mozilla/talkilla/blob/master/server/presence.js#L220 for the APIs<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; More a test bed, not really built to scale yet.&nbsp;<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Once you connect, you see all connected to that server.<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; https://talkilla.mozillalabs.com/ (if you want to try it)<br
/><br
/>Chat Simply<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ad-hoc authentication<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; uses BOSH and XMPP<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Long Poll server&nbsp;<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; provides group chat and 1-1<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Privacy ?<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; has to deal with a lot of these issues.<br
/><br
/>Loqui.im<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; multi-protocol chat system (xmpp, gtalk, etc)<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; for FxOS<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; very interested to moving to use more Fx tech (simple push, websockets, Persona)<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; does this have a cloud service component or is it just a client?<br
/><br
/>BigBlueButton<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp; Sip client / based on FreeSwitch on the server<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Second WEbFFD from spain.<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Video conf tool , chat, share stream.&nbsp;<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; started as Flash, moved to WebRTC<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Using SIPml5.js (SIMPLE?) - moving to WebRTC&nbsp; (http://code.google.com/p/sipml5/)<br
/>http://demo.bigbluebutton.org/<br
/><br
/>So, where next?<br
/><ul><li>communication apps<ul><li>mostly based on XMPP</li
><li>based on LongPoll currently, moving to websockets.</li></ul
></li
><li>tech<ul><li>websockets are (almost) everywhere now<ul><li>Multi-platform (client list)</li></ul
></li
><li>May need both websocket and long-polling to handle desktop and mobile (or is this only for mobile?)</li
><li>apps are moving away from long polling techniques to using websockets</li></ul
></li></ul
>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Issues with sockets (from simplepush):<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Max ~200K sockets per box for AWS<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Issues with socket longevity<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Intercommunication between CoLos can be a challenge.<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<br
/>ChatSImply:<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Had opportunity to use websockets, but continued to<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; use long polling because websockets:<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Issues with AWS<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; issues with routing and other elements<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; back then mobile browsers didn't support websockets<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; long polling works very well and is reliable.<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Blong polling is costly:<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; each message causes connect/disconnect.<br
/><br
/>Sockets between clients can work well. Sockets to the server has had many problems. AWS limits you to 200K inbound connections. Short term connections can work. The 90% use case where there isn't a ton of traffic, long polling is sufficient. Use a socket when your doing Video or have active large traffic.<br
/><br
/>Many problems may be already solved in XMPP spec.&nbsp;<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; PubSub deeply built in.<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; personal eventing protocol&nbsp;<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Pub/Sub for any event<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; On new event; can get an item<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; carrier can use long polling or websocket.<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; should we implement this or part of the XMPP protocol<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<br
/>Trying to segment XMPP traffic is a challenge.<br
/><br
/>XMPP has benefits and challenges.&nbsp;<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Is there a list of use cases or requirements?<br
/><br
/>* How could we have Talkilla and ChatSimply partisipate in the same presence service?<br
/>* http://blog.ziade.org/chat.jpg<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Systems are completely sep. only common element would be the presence server.<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; How hard would it be to change an existing system to use the service?<br
/><br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; How to make it so that chat simply doesn't have to run or need to run it's own contact system, but can get it from a common service?<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; All contact info is transient for chat system.<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Further, could we provide a UI service that lets the user select and browse contacts<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (e.g., selecting recipients of a message)<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; without revealing to the chat app (or whatever app) the contents of my contacts<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; but only the selected choice in the end<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Having Presence use Persona, user could specify a different Persona for each cluster.<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Persona lets you use a different id per site.<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Users need to be able to control which contacts are exposed to which apps, so the can segment presensce. Respect user's privacy.<br
/>Federation is very important. Should focus on that.<br
/>Where to put FxA in the picture.<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; https://wiki.mozilla.org/Identity/Firefox-Accounts<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Is FxA providing User Info (name, etc.)<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Providing in the future.<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Possible application of presence is huge.&nbsp;<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (pushing updates to friends, who's online to chat, where I am, etc.)<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; encapsulated and controlled by FxA<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; so "Yes"<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Contacts service on it's own would be valuable.<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Not "FxA will implement Contacts, but will enable a contact service existing."<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; PICL for sync<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Intention is FxA to hold very little user data<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Makes other things go.<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Services related to user password, really don't want to store user data<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (Avoid Yahoo UserDB problems, It became a kitchen sink for EVERYTHING)<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; May provide VERY small set of common data (user name, email?, avatar?), but not a dumping ground.<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<br
/>10K perspective<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Identity, Authorization == FxA<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; nb, FxA uses BrowserID protocol, like Persona, so auth is not a huge change for anyone<br
/><br
/>Possible Tasks:<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Build a chat app?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Contact/address book? On the server vs UA?<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Does this already exist?<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/WebAPI/Contacts
<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; https://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/dom/contacts/fallback/ContactService.jsm etc<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Is there a low level r/w API? Can this be synced? etc.<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Building a webapp means you want to store on server, but can use new tech.<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Biggest drawback:<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Can do big imports, but the contact data doesn't stay the same between devices.<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Contact service would be useful.<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Kinda useful for presence server as well.<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Should create another non-chat type app.<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Server to server app.&nbsp;<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; try to build something to standardize on.<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Semi-federated<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Facebook can talk XMPP, but not federated<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Google shutting down public XMPP<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<br
/>&nbsp; SimpleChat asks Contact/Presence system "Who of the user's contacts are online"? It can treat this data as transient.<br
/><br
/>Does it make sense to keep the two APIs (Contacts, Presence) seperate?<br
/><br
/>Use case<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Contacts &amp; Presence..<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Seem to be building the basics of Facebook Platform<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Need a way to pre-emtptive grant access to apps and contacts (permissions)<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Have some of the parts for this.<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Can sign in with persona and use content,<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; no way to grant access or delegate auth.<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Web activities for social services?<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Do we need a permissions service?<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Is this already defined or created?<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Web Intents &amp; activities?<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; May need to be more fine grained than FxA<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; How to apply to federated systems without a lot of ugly bouncing between systems.<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Would folks run whole stack or bits of it.&nbsp;<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; In a single "go" grant bearer tokens for each serivce.&nbsp;<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Should we use token server?<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; trade FxA token with timed auth token for interconnection.<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; e.g. this token will allow these services and these permissions for this period.<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Difference between FB Need access to Contacts and ours "need access to a service that will return me a list of contacts"?<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Provide data while providing invisible privacy (so that users can't complain about it)<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Want to avoid "you are being sold" approach or feeling.<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<br
/><br
/><b>* Common apps problems</b><br
/><br
/><ul><li>how can an application integrates seamessly in a FFOS phone ecosystem&nbsp;</li
><li>how can all the apps share the same presence service</li
><li>can we deal with presence separately from contacts ?</li
><li><br/><br/><br
/></li></ul
>&nbsp;<br
/><i>* Project Goal:</i><br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ? A system allowing one to share when they're <s>online</s> engaged in an activity with others, and see when <s>others</s> allowed associates are doing the same, and facilitate near real-time interaction.<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I would put Persona as the central thing . e.g. "a presence service that can be used by any<br
/>application on the phone -&nbsp; so we can federate presence around Persona."<br
/><br
/>Maybe a first experiment would be implementing a subset of XMPP for presence/signaling ?&nbsp;<br
/>e.g. http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0163.html<br
/><br
/>