Support/IRC-meetings/august2012/

16:00 satdav Welcome to the sumo irc meeting for august 2012 16:02 madalina hi everybody 16:02 rosana hi everybody 16:02 Ziggy_Maes Hi! 16:03 satdav 1 how canwe get livechat helpers to help on the forums and other methods- satdav https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/.../contributors/708522?last=47924 for the full thread 16:03 satdav so what is your thoughts guys 16:04 satdav 1 how canwe get livechat helpers to help on the forums and other methods- satdav https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/.../contributors/708522?last=47924 for the full thread 16:05 * matthewrbowker is reading 16:05 satdav Ok matthewrbowker thats fine its a big thread 16:06 tobbi___ Hey everyone. 16:06 satdav hi tobbi___ 16:07 tobbi___ So. What are the benefits of live chat support. Why was it more popular and more attractive to the helpers than the forums are? 16:07 tobbi___ Because it's more personal? 16:07 tobbi___ Because it's instant? 16:07 matthewrbowker tobbi___: It's personalised and faster. That's why Wikipedia has one, anyway. 16:07 satdav 1 how canwe get livechat helpers to help on the forums and other methods- satdav https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/.../contributors/708522?last=47924 for the full thread 16:08 tobbi___ hmm...So, what do the forums lack that they are not as personalized? 16:08 Ziggy_Maes Now, another question, from what I've noticed the significance of a question has changed quite a bit since livechat was put on hiatus. Meaning there are no more easy questions to be found. Quite honestly, I was browsing through the forum a few week back and I was only able to reply to one single thread. Noting that I was a livechat helper, I am disturbed by that fact. 16:08 matthewrbowker No, the forums lack because they're slower. 16:08 madalina tobbi : that's a very good question 16:08 matthewrbowker (my opinion) 16:09 tobbi___ Well, it's not exactly the speed, it's the disadvantages that it brings with it. 16:09 tobbi___ Uhm, during a live chat, a helper has a vision, he can instantly think about what to do, has a plan and then carries it out. 16:09 madalina ziggy_maes i think this is happening because our kb got better 16:10 Ziggy_Maes Yes, no doubts there. 16:10 satdav yes i know what you mean, a other issue is because you have to login all the time 16:10 tobbi___ That kind of flow is what makes the speed of forums so bad. You have to rethink everything. 16:10 tobbi___ Or, well, you have to like, kinda, re-imagine the user and his problem and stuff like that. 16:10 Ziggy_Maes Regarding that flow, I think I suggested like this personal notepad for each thread. 16:11 Ziggy_Maes That way you can leave notes to you, or other contributors, while it can be as technical as possible. 16:11 tobbi___ hmm, one for each contributor or one for all contributor? 16:11 madalina ziggy_maes tobbi from what i understand each live chat helper has it's own flow that he was following, like questions he would ask right? 16:12 satdav yes 16:12 tobbi___ madalina: As far as I remember, yes. It's like a list of possible solutions. 16:12 Ziggy_Maes Yes 16:12 satdav it used to tell us what kind of issue their was 16:13 feer56 Basically live chat was more efficient and quicker than waiting for hours for the user to post a reply and have another contributor take over. 16:14 madalina so it seems we have a few issues 1. it's too slow 2. we have to wait for the user to get back to you 3. other people may go in an answer on your thread 16:14 satdav the best thing about the livechat was the people profer as it was a real person 16:15 satdav madalina, or rosana can we add a survey on the site asking the users what they liked about livechat 16:15 tobbi___ One more thing (I don't know how important it is): The amount of work you put into answering a thread can get tiring, when you don't even know a user can get back to you. 16:15 madalina i guess number 3 can be solved by introducing ownership on the thread 16:15 tobbi___ For livechat, it was easy to simply ask: Hey, how can I help you? so not much time wasted there. 16:15 madalina satdav: that's a good idea, we can do that 16:15 Ziggy_Maes madalina: it's not that other contributors can't assist with the support process, but it's hard to follow up when someone else asks their own 'flow' of question. 16:15 madalina ziggy_maes i understand 16:15 madalina i think the idea of having a notepad is good 16:16 tobbi___ I'm maybe proposing another thing: What about letting the user not only solve the thread but rate the helper experience? 16:16 satdav madalina, can we add a temp livechat software to see how it does 16:16 Ziggy_Maes Well yeah, that way you solve both issue number 2 and 3. 16:16 tobbi___ And we kinda tell the helper about that? 16:16 tobbi___ So the helper gets motivated and know it *really* helped? 16:16 satdav as i have been speaking to people like kayako about a possible solution 16:16 madalina satdav: i don't think that would be possible for now 16:16 tobbi___ I mean: "This solved my issue" is kinda not personal enough IMO. 16:16 satdav I know it can be 16:16 Ziggy_Maes tobbi___: agreed. 16:16 feer56 Like tobbi said you don't know if they will ever reply which sometimes is frustrating. 16:17 satdav if some of our contributor can admin it 16:17 feer56 David, katako is for companies not this. 16:17 feer56 kayako * 16:18 matthewrbowker May I throw an idea out? Wikipedia uses IRC for our support. That way, it's a cummunity support. If one person leaves, another takes over. 16:18 feer56 we could of course try it but at the same time money is invested. 16:19 tobbi___ matthewrbowker: Hmm, what about UX on that one? IRC is a technical chat protocol. 16:19 madalina satdav feer56 let's try not to think about a livechat support software right now 16:19 tobbi___ okay. 16:19 matthewrbowker tobbi___: We use Freenode's WebChat interface as a link. 16:19 Ziggy_Maes The thing is I really don't see the point in livechat when there is alot that can be improved on the forums at this point. 16:19 feer56 That's fine madalina 16:19 matthewrbowker tobbi___: http://webchat.freenode.net 16:19 satdav why madalina when i am still getting pms i know one of the contributors can do it 16:19 madalina the idea of the conversation was to see if we can make the support forum more friendly so that people who like livechat also have fun in the forum 16:19 tobbi___ yeah, let's get back to that. 16:20 Ziggy_Maes Madaline, I think you mentioned the 3 major issues at this time. There is more, but less significant. 16:20 tobbi___ One more thing: Do people who answer questions on the forum *know* that they can ask for help on IRC? 16:20 Ziggy_Maes madalina* 16:21 madalina tobbi that's also something i wanted to ask 16:21 feer56 there will always be ups and downs to everything 16:21 tobbi___ Because when we had LiveChat we encouraged people to ask for help in the contributor forum. 16:21 madalina that would be interesting to know 16:21 tobbi___ eeh channel. 16:21 madalina i think tobbi makes a very good point 16:21 tobbi___ Well, the problem with this is: Getting to #sumo isn't really that easy. 16:22 Ziggy_Maes The thing with that is that there's no point in asking for something on IRC when you're not expecting a reply for hours. By the time you do get to answer, you'd have forgotten it. 16:22 feer56 I look info up but when I dont know how to answer than another user answers so that's why it is that big of a deal to me. 16:22 madalina okay so how about if we had something like.. buddy hours? 16:22 madalina that is somebody is assigned to be on #sumo and answer questions of people who get stuck 16:22 Ziggy_Maes Please explain? 16:23 madalina somebody who is more experienced 16:23 madalina so that we know that there's somebody always there in case you need help 16:23 Ziggy_Maes madalina: I think I didn't make myself clear, my apologies. 16:23 tobbi___ There are still potential problems: 1) People still don't know how to get to #sumo from SUMO and we don't want to make it too complicated. 16:24 tobbi___ 2) If we rely on contributors, there's always the problem of not getting burnt out. 16:24 tobbi___ (You "have" to be available) 16:24 madalina ziggy_maes sorry you meant you're not getting a reply on the forums 16:24 tobbi___ And 3) Do we have a contributor base large enough to kinda carry this weight? 16:24 Ziggy_Maes madalina: Exactly 16:24 Ziggy_Maes madalina: Sorry for not pointing that out. 16:25 madalina tobbi; we don't have to rely only on contributors, sumo team can also help 16:25 madalina i'm not saying it's feasible, just throwing that idea out 16:25 madalina thinking out loud :) 16:25 tobbi___ Alright. 16:25 tobbi___ madalina: Is zzxc still employed? 16:25 tobbi___ (and, is he actively working on stuff or attending the all hands?) 16:25 tobbi___ well, /s/employed/contracted 16:26 madalina zzxc is matthew? 16:26 Ziggy_Maes Yes 16:26 tobbi___ madalina: yes. 16:26 tobbi___ Mr. middleton. 16:26 madalina no, he is not part of the sumo team anymore 16:26 tobbi___ madalina: So, his contract ended? 16:26 madalina i think so. i'm afraid i don't have to much info as I only arrived afterwards 16:27 tobbi___ No problem. I believe it was better for him, he looked heavily burnt out 16:27 madalina i never met matthew ;/ 16:27 tobbi___ Something on the psychological side: Does making chat more personal increase or decrease burn out? 16:27 tobbi___ eeh forums. 16:28 tobbi___ What happens if the chat is personal and people are disappointed about not getting the right solution? 16:28 tobbi___ Do helpers kinda "suffer" from that? 16:28 madalina as far as i'm concerned forums are more relaxing. because you have time to do research 16:28 satdav madalina, I dont think he does sumo now 16:28 madalina satdav: no he doesn't 16:28 Ziggy_Maes tobbi___: No I don't think it's that. You get used to that. It's more the amount of chats to complete. 16:28 tobbi___ Ziggy_Maes: Talking about threads, right? 16:29 satdav madalina, desktop told me still was 16:29 Ziggy_Maes tobbi___: No I thought you were talking about livechat? 16:29 tobbi___ Ziggy_Maes: I'm not sure, are forums different from forums in that aspect? 16:29 tobbi___ eeh different from livechat? 16:29 madalina satdav: he is definitely not doing sumo now, not sure if he does anything else, but he is not in the sumo team 16:30 madalina ziggy_maes tobbi: let's clarify 16:30 satdav PL 16:30 madalina so what is more stresfull forums or livechat? 16:30 Ziggy_Maes livechat. 16:30 satdav forums for me 16:30 tobbi___ It depends... 16:30 feer567 Forums. 16:30 matthewrbowker livechat, it's real time 16:30 satdav as livechat was good 16:30 tobbi___ haha. 16:30 satdav and easy to use 16:30 madalina satdav: why are forums hard to use? 16:31 tobbi___ For me, an important factor is the time you spend on an issue. 16:31 Ziggy_Maes No, the question isn't whether livechat was good or not. Lets be honest here, I think there were alot of us having 5+ chats active at all times. 16:31 tobbi___ When you answer a chat you know that it will be done within 1 hour of time mostly. 16:31 tobbi___ That's not the case for forums, these issues have a long lifespan. 16:31 feer56 tobbi_ has a good point. most were done 1 hours or less. 16:32 satdav some forums posts take days or weeks to respond 16:32 tobbi___ yup 16:32 Ziggy_Maes I think livechat was more stressfull in the sence that there was a lot of incoming chats that had to be dealt with. Queues well over an hour and etc. That said it was more personal hence more fun, you were able to do a lot in a short timespan where as the forums are the exact oposit. 16:32 tobbi___ Oh, yes. 16:32 Ziggy_Maes opposite* 16:32 tobbi___ The queue, I remember that one :D 16:32 satdav yes thats the down side 16:33 tobbi___ But you could answer more than one chat at a time. 16:33 feer56 Well the more contributors the better. 16:33 tobbi___ And the instructions you gave were shorter. 16:33 tobbi___ You typed more short sentences in a shorter time. 16:33 satdav yes thats a good thing about chat 16:33 feer56 I forgot to mention that there was canned responses as to the forum does now. 16:33 Ziggy_Maes tobbi___: Indeed, but that only increases the stress. Remember zzxc always having 10+ chats open? 16:33 tobbi___ In the forums you type long instructions, don't know whether they're ever read... 16:33 tobbi___ Ziggy_Maes: Yes... 16:34 tobbi___ haha, I believe we're overwhelming madalina... :P 16:34 tobbi___ She has to read all the scrollback and evaluate the stuff :P 16:35 Ziggy_Maes Haha indeed 16:35 madalina haha i keep trying to write and then new stuff is coming in 16:35 madalina so i stop :D 16:35 Ziggy_Maes :P 16:35 tobbi___ let's have a break. 16:35 madalina ok so, i assume you had shorter sentences because the user would follow the instructions on the spot? 16:35 tobbi___ madalina: yes. 16:35 madalina such as: can you please click there and then he clicks. and then you go to the next step 16:36 satdav madalina, can we not install a free livechat and see how it does 16:36 satdav for a month or 2 weeks 16:36 tobbi___ madalina: Exactly. 16:36 satdav would be good 16:36 madalina while on the forums you have to write all the instructiosn at once 16:36 tobbi___ yup. 16:37 tobbi___ madalina: What about categories in the forums? So, each crash issue goes into the crashes category, bookmark issues belong to bookmarks and so on? That way we can have "experts" who like to deal with each stuff independently and find their preferred issues? 16:37 tobbi___ I admit I borrowed that from Yahoo! Answers. 16:38 madalina tobbi: i think that's a very good idea 16:38 madalina we can have forums more discussion oriented 16:38 madalina rather than question and answer 16:38 satdav yes that would be better 16:38 satdav madalina, 16:39 satdav Swarnava, we are still on question 1 16:39 tobbi___ madalina: When will the new UI for SUMO be landed? Any estimate? 16:39 madalina tobbi: i wish i had an answer to that questions :/ 16:39 tobbi___ (still a discussion can get tiresome at some point) 16:39 madalina maybe verdi or topal can help here 16:40 tobbi___ disregard that for now. 16:40 satdav Matt_G, ^ 16:40 Swarnava bram may know that! 16:40 madalina so i'm thinking what we are looking for is a combination of livechat and forum. or let's say a forum with more of a discussion feeling 16:40 tobbi___ probably, yes. 16:41 satdav verdi, do you know when the new ui will go public 16:41 tobbi___ With none of the disadvantages...meaning no pressure on contributors... 16:41 Matt_G satdav: The current layout is the new IA 16:41 madalina yes tobbi i agree and that is actually a cool thing about the foruma s boring as it may seem 16:41 satdav tobbi___, ^ 16:41 madalina there's no pressure 16:41 Matt_G we are automating the tools required to create this structure. 16:41 satdav does that answer it 16:41 madalina you have the time to ask around research etc 16:42 tobbi___ madalina: Yes, but the time you spend on each issue, it gets boring... 16:42 Matt_G that is something that we are currently working on. It'll decrease time involved for translators and kb contributors. 16:42 tobbi___ madalina: I believe the time you spend until you get positive feedback is simply too long. 16:42 tobbi___ So that it gets tiresome. 16:42 tobbi___ That's the essence of the issue there. 16:42 Ziggy_Maes madalina: I don't mean to sound arrogant, but you should really check out those thread notepads. I think they would be a step forward. 16:42 madalina tobbi: maybe this is something where we need to work on 16:43 tobbi___ madalina: Maybe motivate people more by displaying a "Thank you for helping this user" after a user has answered? 16:43 madalina ziggy_maes are you talking about this thread? https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/.../contributors/708522?last=47924 16:43 tobbi___ Y!Answers does this (once again, I borrowed that idea) 16:43 Swarnava satdav: follow bug 762255 for latest ui update 16:43 satdav OK 16:44 Ziggy_Maes madalina: give me a second to check that out 16:44 tobbi___ Hmm, to reduce the time a person spends on each thread: What could we do against that? 16:45 tobbi___ IMO we need to give him the right tools at hand. 16:45 satdav guys can we move on the the next topic 16:45 tobbi___ And with at hand I mean: Not let him open a new tab... 16:45 madalina tobbi: yes 16:45 Ziggy_Maes madalina: No, I talked with Rosana about the entire livechat and forum thing earlier this year at FOSDEM 16:45 madalina ziggy_maes: can you send me those links? 16:46 satdav Ziggy_Maes, do you have a copy of the chat logs 16:46 madalina i surely would like to check them out 16:46 rosana ziggy: at the tiem I wasn't really aware of many things it was my very first week 16:46 * tobbi___ would 16:46 tobbi___ ve loved to be at FOSDEM. 16:46 Ziggy_Maes madalina satdav: it wasn't on IRC, although I might have some logs though! rosana: Well thank you ! :( 16:46 tobbi___ But once again, Mozilla didn't sponser people other than employees and people doing a speech :P 16:47 Ziggy_Maes Ziggy_Maes: hold on 16:47 tobbi___ never midn that. 16:47 Swarnava lot of people saying Firefox and flash incompatibility happening because of chrome 16:47 Swarnava :O 16:47 Ziggy_Maes Oh why am I talking to myself now. 16:47 madalina ziggy_maes: :D 16:47 Swarnava if they uninstall chrome Firefox working again o.O 16:47 satdav its fine we are listening to you ziggy 16:47 Swarnava http://www.facebook.com/Firefox/posts/10151991100265022 16:47 madalina don't get overexcited 16:48 tobbi___ Also, I wonder: Is there something we can do to make things "look" exciting? So that people don't get the feeling "Urgh, it's another SUMO thread"...? 16:48 tobbi___ Not sure if that's something on the UX / design side or simply my opinion. 16:48 madalina tobbi: hell yes, i would love to have that 16:49 madalina i think the best way to go is to gather all your feedack 16:49 madalina how would you like this to look, what kind of options you would like to have 16:49 killer [satdav_] Welcome to Sumo Meet #sumomeet 16:49 tobbi___ madalina: Yeah, I wonder what exactly makes people think that. Do you have any ideas? 16:49 Ziggy_Maes Is anyone using an etherpad to write everything down that is being said? 16:49 tobbi___ madalina: I'm actually not sure, SUMO just doesn't look "fresh" 16:49 madalina tobbi: it might be the way everything is structured 16:49 madalina like question answer questions answer 16:49 tobbi___ hmm, probably. 16:50 tobbi___ I like the new design, it looks more light. 16:50 madalina yes 16:50 tobbi___ ...not sure if that helps anything, though. 16:50 madalina but anyway this is good feedback let's look at it 16:50 madalina well, it's a start 16:50 satdav_ I am not 16:50 satdav_ but going to post the chat logs on the wiki 16:50 satdav_ as its easier 16:51 madalina ok guys we might want to move to the next topic 16:51 madalina to wrap this up 16:51 satdav_ 2 accessibility - what do you think of the site since the accessibility features have been updated for example new colour scheme . Also, have we looked at the new designs of the site with an eye to accessibility? Maybe bram can join and talk about this aspect of the new design? - see bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=762255 16:51 madalina ziggy_maes is ther anyway to get those links? if not let's do it again 16:51 madalina satdav: wait a sec 16:51 satdav_ OK 16:51 madalina i want to wrap the first topic up 16:51 satdav_ OK 16:51 Ziggy_Maes madalina: you'd have to give me some days. Those logs are from february 16:52 tobbi___ One thing about categories: With categories people have the feeling "Yay, I'm done" 16:52 Ziggy_Maes I wrote it down as a todo for this weekend. 16:52 madalina ziggy_maes it's no hurry. when you have time 16:52 tobbi___ When they only view the contents in their category. 16:52 satdav_ madalina, can you arrange a big meeting with the contributors about irc 16:52 madalina i will take all your feedback and this discussion here 16:52 madalina and put in an etherpad 16:52 madalina and maybe we can come up with a way to make that forum more friendly 16:52 satdav_ OK thanks madalina for doing that 16:52 satdav_ madalina, what about mobile apps 16:52 satdav_ like for android and ios 16:53 madalina cool satdav let's move on 16:53 madalina you mean for the forum? 16:53 satdav_ yes 16:53 tobbi___ what's the next point? 16:53 madalina ok satdav: i'll look at that feedback as well 16:53 satdav_ the next point is about accessibility 16:54 satdav_ OK 16:54 tobbi___ Frankly, I am no a11y expert. 16:54 satdav_ its fine tobbi 16:56 madalina so guys any feedback on the second point? 16:56 satdav_ 2 accessibility - what do you think of the site since the accessibility features have been updated for example new colour scheme . Also, have we looked at the new designs of the site with an eye to accessibility? Maybe bram can join and talk about this aspect of the new design? - see bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=762255 16:56 satdav_ for the second point for anyone who has not read it 16:56 Ziggy_Maes Yeah I don't know anything of color schemes either. 16:57 Ziggy_Maes if Bram would care to quickly brief us of the changes? 16:57 Ziggy_Maes If he has the time. 16:57 tobbi___ He isn't even online, is he? 16:58 tobbi___ It appears he isn't. 16:58 Ziggy_Maes oh, I don't know his IRC nickname. I was assuming he was in this meeting. 16:58 madalina i don't think bram is online 16:58 Ziggy_Maes Sorry! 16:58 madalina he is in a very weird time zone now 16:58 tobbi___ New Zealand...right? 16:58 madalina yes exaclty tobbi 16:59 Ziggy_Maes Ah yes, the part of the world where it's winter! 16:59 madalina so only people in the US might reach him online 16:59 madalina haha ziggy_maes 16:59 madalina bram might be snowboarding now :d 16:59 Ziggy_Maes Heh 16:59 tobbi___ No reason not to join this meeting :P 16:59 tobbi___ Wireless LAN on a snowboard :P 17:00 satdav_ Ziggy_Maes, it was me who put in the bugs 17:00 satdav_ as i have got a disability 17:00 tobbi___ I wonder: Wouldn't it be best if you guys schedule a meeting on your own? Because no one else is affected by a11y and we cannot give guidance? 17:00 Ziggy_Maes Oh, did I mis a link? 17:01 madalina ziggy_maes there's a link in the etherpad 17:01 Ziggy_Maes Oh! I stopped reading at color schemes, sorry! :( 17:01 satdav_ Ziggy_Maes, their is a bug link 17:01 Ziggy_Maes Oh yes that is extremely detailed. Thank you! 17:02 satdav_ bug 762255 17:02 madalina anyway guys satdav we can ask bram separately or i can send him an email if you guys have questions and he's not online 17:02 satdav_ OK 17:02 madalina we can formulate an etherpad with questions for bram :) 17:02 satdav_ OK 17:02 madalina guys i'm afraid i have to run as our hour is over 17:02 tobbi___ haha, put a reminder for UX of my canned responses stuff on it :P 17:02 madalina let's talk about facebook on tuesday? 17:03 tobbi___ Yes. 17:03 madalina so, i will send a reminder about the next meeting